Race Tracking Your Supra - Information exchange

[razorlab]

no matter what combinations of compounds you use they run in the 1000 to 1200F range on track.

Anyone serious about track use should be looking at pads with .40-.65 coefficient of friction and at least 1300F max ability.

The temp capacity are table stakes.

You'll notice that the beloved (but way too expensive) CSG C21 pads tick all those boxes. .42-.48 friction and 1760F max.

The Project Mu Club racers that I use are .42-.55 friction and 1500F max. So they also tick those boxes.

Think of the coefficient of friction number as your tuning guide. Some people like way more initial bite, some people like a bite that ramps up and releases quickly, or slowly. It all depends on your style and car setup.

Here is a good example. On my last car, I had used both the ST43 and the ST47 compounds shown above. If you notice, they both have the same horizontal plotting, it's just that the ST47 has a higher coefficient of friction. To me, the ST47 had way too much initial bite for my setup and driving style so I would lock up the brakes much easier at first until I got used to them. They also didn't release and modulate as smoothly because of the higher friction rating.

The St43's worked great for decent street track tires. The ST47's worked great with real R-Compounds because I could exploit the higher friction level more.

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[Todday1]

Good stuff - and for those that have not looked up all the heat ranges - most street/track pads go up to about 850F max or even less. Hence why you run out of brake pad. They still are better than stock but have limitations. So have to get something that works for you. Hopefully this helps the group as the could be a whole workshop on this one.

 

[razorlab]

Good stuff - and for those that have not looked up all the heat ranges - most street/track pads go up to about 850F max or even less. Hence why you run out of brake pad. They still are better than stock but have limitations. So have to get something that works for you. Hopefully this helps the group as the could be a whole workshop on this one.

The ST38 in the chart above is a great example of that. .50-.45 friction until 800F then drops off a cliff to .20 friction.

 

[tomfree]

Another "I've been looking for this thread" guy here. 20+ yr track guy, instructed for a short time (long story for another day), and new to the Supra. For Razorlab's "Driving like an Ape" - yeah, I had some of those when I was instructing.

The traction control discussion is interesting. My use case is a little different at the moment. In my other thread where I'm prepping for One Lap of America, I haven't really talked too much about this, but it seems appropriate here.

The One Lap time trial format is this:

• One untimed recon lap with cold car/tires/brakes, coming to a complete stop before Start/Finish
• Standing start
• 3 timed laps (standing start lap and 2 flying laps)
• 1 cool down lap
• Your competition time is cumulative, so no sandbagging to get one good lap.

You get 2 of these sessions per day, with the morning session starting around 9AM and the afternoon session starting around 1pm. The REALLY serious folks pre-run each track, but the hacks like me don't have the time/funds, so much of the time, you're seeing the tracks for the first time in person on that recon lap.

Last year in the Cayman S, we would run in Sport+ in the dry - traction control was on, but at it's least intrusive setting. In the wet, we would run in Sport. It's not uncommon to run some pretty ugly lines, putting you in the wrong place on track at speed. Having the nannies step in was helpful a few times. We were definitely not at the limits of the car, so I felt the upside of the traction control was notable.

It's a very different paradigm than your normal 25 min DE session, or even a NASA-style TT session. Even on a brand new track, after 4 or 5 laps, muscle memory starts to take over and you stop thinking so much about "brake at the 3, 90deg right hander, track out is on camber so you can carry more speed." You move to fine adjustments.

With the OLOA format, you don't get the time to build that muscle memory...and if it's a track like Barber with a lot of elevation change where you can't really see what's coming up, you are thinking "am I supposed to be full track right over this hill? I sure hope so."

 

[AHP]

Braking power is fine. Brake feel is not. That is what people complain about.

Drive an Evo, CTR or Golf R and you’ll see what we mean.

I tracked Evos for years so I am used to all the feels. The Supra is numb compared but as we all know, still super capable.

Right, braking power is generally fine for me. It's the feel/feedback (or lack thereof) but also the amount of physical pedal pressure required vs others. With one exception I've always found 'just a little bit more' but it required getting into the pedal HARD.

I'm running Endless fluid and Endless MX72 pads. The pads are definitely more dual-purpose than track focused but they've served me well to this point. At CMP the pads will start to overheat about the same time as the tires (RE-71RS). They've been easy on the rotors, low dust and are totally silent on the street. None of that really matters to me, but it's worth mentioning for those shopping pads. An instructor buddy of mine also with a Supra was impressed by them, FWIW. That said, I am at the point where I would step up to a more aggressive pad if I planned to keep tracking the Supra.

 

[razorlab]

I'm running Endless fluid and Endless MX72 pads. The pads are definitely more dual-purpose than track focused but they've served me well to this point. At CMP the pads will start to overheat about the same time as the tires (RE-71RS). They've been easy on the rotors, low dust and are totally silent on the street. None of that really matters to me, but it's worth mentioning for those shopping pads. An instructor buddy of mine also with a Supra was impressed by them, FWIW. That said, I am at the point where I would step up to a more aggressive pad if I planned to keep tracking the Supra.

I'd recommend the Project Mu Club Racer pads. They are also pretty quiet on the street and work well on the track. My favorite pad for cars that don't have a ton of power.

 

[RichSC]

Anyone serious about track use should be looking at pads with .40-.65 coefficient of friction and at least 1300F max ability.

The temp capacity are table stakes.

You'll notice that the beloved (but way too expensive) CSG C21 pads tick all those boxes. .42-.48 friction and 1760F max.

The Project Mu Club racers that I use are .42-.55 friction and 1500F max. So they also tick those boxes.

Think of the coefficient of friction number as your tuning guide. Some people like way more initial bite, some people like a bite that ramps up and releases quickly, or slowly. It all depends on your style and car setup.

Here is a good example. On my last car, I had used both the ST43 and the ST47 compounds shown above. If you notice, they both have the same horizontal plotting, it's just that the ST47 has a higher coefficient of friction. To me, the ST47 had way too much initial bite for my setup and driving style so I would lock up the brakes much easier at first until I got used to them. They also didn't release and modulate as smoothly because of the higher friction rating.

The St43's worked great for decent street track tires. The ST47's worked great with real R-Compounds because I could exploit the higher friction level more.

True that. I love the CSG pads but they're expensive af. Might give the Project Mu a try at some point though, hear good things about those as well.

For brake wear, I've gone through a set of GLoc R12s and am still on the CSG pads I bought before COTA last year. Fluid I'm using SRF and OEM rotors. I also don't lap the entire 15-20 minute session though so that's probably lending to the slow rate of wear I have. Same here with feel, was a little difficult initially to find that limit where I'm starting to get into ABS.


Generally it's outlap, one or two fast laps, hot pit to check tire temps/pressures and out again if the car will allow it. I'm not the fastest by any means, but fuel starve and the limp mode associated with it has become a problem. Have to go out with a full tank each session.

 

[Todday1]

Again - glad people are jumping in - I like the format you. We have a "time attack" that is similar with the 4 laps, but is not a cumulative average, just fastest lap. Made some tire blankets and go out in HPDE 4 first to warm tires. So tire temps sitting on the line are at 160 per the sensors. Not sure if it helps but looks cool in the pits(LOL)

 

[AHP]

I'd recommend the Project Mu Club Racer pads. They are also pretty quiet on the street and work well on the track. My favorite pad for cars that don't have a ton of power.

I would definitely go that route next, but I'm in the process of selling the car (don't ban me )... That said, it will be formally campaigned by the next owner, which will be super cool. I'll probably be back with a 6sp when they're reasonably attainable, though.




RE: Fuel Starvation -- knock on wood I never experienced that on a 200TW. I try to keep at least 1/2 a tank but I accidentally ran one down to 8 miles est. without issue, and have been at a 1/3 or less multiple times.

 

[tomfree]

This talk about fuel starve/limp mode...thank you for the reminder. I'll start the day with as close to full tank as I can, so that should get me through 8 laps without having to think about it too hard.

I know Danny Kao had a limp-mode issue in his Supra at CMP last year, but I think that had more to do with bad gas, vs fuel level. For those who drive at CMP regularly, you already know to avoid the station right outside the gate if at all possible. After clearing the code and a fill up with top-tier fuel, it didn't happen again for the rest of the week.

 

[razorlab]

This talk about fuel starve/limp mode...thank you for the reminder. I'll start the day with as close to full tank as I can, so that should get me through 8 laps without having to think about it too hard.

I know Danny Kao had a limp-mode issue in his Supra at CMP last year, but I think that had more to do with bad gas, vs fuel level. For those who drive at CMP regularly, you already know to avoid the station right outside the gate if at all possible. After clearing the code and a fill up with top-tier fuel, it didn't happen again for the rest of the week.

It's on right turns when it happens. With 100% stock power this last season, I never had fuel starvation ONCE at Lime Rock, which is 99% right turns. It might have something to do with the 2020 oem tuning, which runs 14.5-14.0 AFR at WOT all the time, so the fuel demands are much lower. The 21+ richens up past 5500 rpm.

This is NOT me saying the problem doesn't exist. Like a lot of things, it's probably track, setup, and tune dependent.

I lost an engine on my last car (Evo 10) from fuel starvation, but ironically it's issue was on left turns. I was also running full E85 that has much more fuel flow demands. I ended up over building the hell out of the fuel system and never had an issue after that.

I expect it only a matter of time with my Supra as this season I will have much more power.

 

[AHP]

This talk about fuel starve/limp mode...thank you for the reminder. I'll start the day with as close to full tank as I can, so that should get me through 8 laps without having to think about it too hard.

I know Danny Kao had a limp-mode issue in his Supra at CMP last year, but I think that had more to do with bad gas, vs fuel level. For those who drive at CMP regularly, you already know to avoid the station right outside the gate if at all possible. After clearing the code and a fill up with top-tier fuel, it didn't happen again for the rest of the week.

Yes, terrible fuel quality. Either use the pumps at CMP or drive 5 min down the road to Kershaw.

My MO was start with a full tank, run 2 sessions and then fill up.

 

[Afterfire]

This talk about fuel starve/limp mode...thank you for the reminder. I'll start the day with as close to full tank as I can, so that should get me through 8 laps without having to think about it too hard.

I know Danny Kao had a limp-mode issue in his Supra at CMP last year, but I think that had more to do with bad gas, vs fuel level. For those who drive at CMP regularly, you already know to avoid the station right outside the gate if at all possible. After clearing the code and a fill up with top-tier fuel, it didn't happen again for the rest of the week.

I track at CMP often and experience starvation about 2 1/2-3 laps in. Thankfully they got the fuel pumps at the track to work reliably, but it doesnt help the issue entirely. Ive spoken to a shop on the west coast who say they are putting out a solution that doesnt require an external fuel container so hopefully that will stimulate the market to put out a cost effective system dedicated to address fuel starvation. If that gets solved, Im gonna run out of excuses

 

[Rocksandblues]

If you drive hard and have right sweepers you will fuel starve at 1/2 and below

 

[razorlab]

If you drive hard and have right sweepers you will fuel starve at 1/2 and below

I've driven at 1/2 and below at Lime Rock and not experienced it. Like I said above, it's probably very dependent on the track, setup, and tune.

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