Several HPDEs in, looking into mild track upgrades

AHP

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Brutal.
I ended up in 3rd place at my last event because my group had an old dude, in a Miata, who refused to do over 75mph and would proudly announce he was only going to point by at three, specific spots on the track. That's great unless you're 8th in line behind him and have to wait until his second or third point by. Then you catch him again within a few laps.
I decided, then, to only do open passing unless there was no other options.


Wow... Super frustrating. Majority of the groups I've been running with are point-by only but that behavior in more than one session wouldn't fly with any of them. Thankfully every group I've run with has been super generous with point-bys and understanding the pecking order. If I had to stick to open passing only events, I'd only be able to do 4-5 a year vs 40-50.
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FLtrackdays

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No such thing here on the East Coast unfortunately. I am used to open passing groups from when I was in California so these last two years have been a bit frustrating.

The only group I have found here that does that is Hooked on Driving and it's only in one group and only certain tracks. Unfortunately, the times I have signed up for that group, there wasn't enough interest so it got lumped into their ordinary advanced group that is point-by only.
That sucks dude!!!! NASA (in HPDE 4) and Performance Driving Group allows no point by and itā€™s wonderful. Itā€™s up to the car overtaking to ensure they can do so properly/safely ofc. But I love it. PGD even allows it in all their run groups - in the straights - which helps a ton! You can also use your blinkers when itā€™s raining, some groups all the time.

Is it perfect? No. But itā€™s better than what Bryan was going through. Plus they are great about talking to people and getting things corrected. I wish all HPDE clubs would switch to something like this. PDG is really on to something šŸ˜Š
 

Rocksandblues

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TT will allow open passing - no point by, I believe.

Shouldnā€™t be any passing. Scca TT I compete in you are staged fastest to slowest after a qualifying session w transponders.

We only have 2-4 good laps before the tires go away. We run 11/10ths effort usually !

The slower cars behind me ainā€™t gonna catch me :)
 

nibble

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Shouldnā€™t be any passing. Scca TT I compete in you are staged fastest to slowest after a qualifying session w transponders.

We only have 2-4 good laps before the tires go away. We run 11/10ths effort usually !

The slower cars behind me ainā€™t gonna catch me :)
I guess SCCA is different. NASA is open passing. see below link.

https://drivenasa.com/time-trial/
 

razorlab

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Why are we talking about time trials when we brought up pointby/open passing in HPDE events?

Whole different ball game. If Time Trial organizers arenā€™t having staging/spacing/open passing, they are shiat time trials.

Also fun fact, track insurance for time trials is much more expensive than normal HPDE and most donā€™t even cover Time Trials.
 

tomfree

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I can't speak for Hagerty, but Lockton Affinity track insurance DOES have an optional Time Trial rider on their policies. I used Lockton for all my OneLap coverage this year. Since I had the time trial rider, I don't know the difference between the base HPDE insurance and the HPDE+TT. I had my car insured for $67K, 10% deductible, TT rider. It was $494 at every track. They gear the policies for a whole track weekend, so for normal events, that $494 will cover you completely. For me...it was more than I needed, but they would not write a policy for a single day.
 

Rocksandblues

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I guess SCCA is different. NASA is open passing. see below link.

https://drivenasa.com/time-trial/

Well at the risk of going down a different rabbit hole....
NASA is different from SCCA in a lot of ways.

For NASA TT- which I have also done. it is open passing because they-unlike SCCA- run a TT session WHILE an HPDE is going on. SO the TT can open pass because they are NOT going to wait for a point by anyway.

NASA will warn hpde drivers when a TT is happening in their session and will actually tell them "WATCH OUT!" these guys are coming and will pass you anywhere which we do.

I passed one guy through the grass and gravel one time because my timer said on was on a great lap.

I am only doing a limited TT this year (enough to podium) because it is super intense and it is more fun to bs w friends and chill while still drive fast full sessions.

Basically, your best TT run will be first or second lap after out lap in the first session of the morning. After that you are chasing your time sideways and driving 11/10th effort for 3/4 laps and then you are done.
 

razorlab

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I can't speak for Hagerty, but Lockton Affinity track insurance DOES have an optional Time Trial rider on their policies. I used Lockton for all my OneLap coverage this year. Since I had the time trial rider, I don't know the difference between the base HPDE insurance and the HPDE+TT. I had my car insured for $67K, 10% deductible, TT rider. It was $494 at every track. They gear the policies for a whole track weekend, so for normal events, that $494 will cover you completely. For me...it was more than I needed, but they would not write a policy for a single day.
Yup, that is a good amount more than covering a HPDE event. Some coverages are track dependent but that is easily $100 more than what I pay for normal HPDE days, and that price you quoted is easily $100 less than what I have been quoted for TT events in my region. Itā€™s been almost double.

Also afaik, Hagerty uses Lockton for track day coverage. at least in the past when I have used them.
 

razorlab

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Well at the risk of going down a different rabbit hole....
NASA is different from SCCA in a lot of ways.

For NASA TT- which I have also done. it is open passing because they-unlike SCCA- run a TT session WHILE an HPDE is going on. SO the TT can open pass because they are NOT going to wait for a point by anyway.

NASA will warn hpde drivers when a TT is happening in their session and will actually tell them "WATCH OUT!" these guys are coming and will pass you anywhere which we do.

I passed one guy through the grass and gravel one time because my timer said on was on a great lap.

I am only doing a limited TT this year (enough to podium) because it is super intense and it is more fun to bs w friends and chill while still drive fast full sessions.

Basically, your best TT run will be first or second lap after out lap in the first session of the morning. After that you are chasing your time sideways and driving 11/10th effort for 3/4 laps and then you are done.
Run a TT in the same HPDE group? My loathing for NASA events continues, lol.
 

kaj

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Shouldnā€™t be any passing. Scca TT I compete in you are staged fastest to slowest after a qualifying session w transponders.

We only have 2-4 good laps before the tires go away. We run 11/10ths effort usually !

The slower cars behind me ainā€™t gonna catch me :)
The group I usually run with usually does this, but it doesn't always work out. I was fastest in my second session, but was passed by three cars that were all of a sudden two seconds faster. Maybe they were testing before hand or otherwise waiting for their flyer lap. Still, a better system than not doing that at all.


Why are we talking about time trials when we brought up pointby/open passing in HPDE events?

Whole different ball game. If Time Trial organizers arenā€™t having staging/spacing/open passing, they are shiat time trials.

Also fun fact, track insurance for time trials is much more expensive than normal HPDE and most donā€™t even cover Time Trials.
Other than the series I'm running in now, I never rent a transponder. That started back when the insurance companies would not ensure time trials. As mentioned above, there is now a rider for time trial events.
It's cool that they've added that on.
Hagerty is the same as Lockton. Same website and all, If I remember right.
 

Rocksandblues

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Run a TT in the same HPDE group? My loathing for NASA events continues, lol.

I am sure you know this:
SCCA non profit run by enthusiasts
NASA- for profit (squeeze lots of paying people on track)

both groups have pros and cons. I actually like everyone i have met from both groups

your mileage may vary.....
 

tomfree

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Hagerty uses RLI for their DE insurance (we used them last year), and Lockton is Lockton. I'm 99.99% sure they're separate organizations.
 

AHP

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Hagerty event coverage (up to 3 days) uses RLI. The bummer is whether your event is 1 or 3 days it's the same price. I never used Lockton since it was marginally more expensive for the same event and coverage.



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And does cover TT for an extra premium; I recall it was about 15-20% more with that option.


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I ended going with an annual Open Track policy as it was much more cost effective and they cover multiple cars and drivers, but they do not cover TT.
 

razorlab

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Hagerty uses RLI for their DE insurance (we used them last year), and Lockton is Lockton. I'm 99.99% sure they're separate organizations.
Looking through past purchases. I think it's dependent on region too.

Last coverage I bought through Lockton was using Nova Casualty Company as the provider
Back in 2016, in California, Lockton used AIX Speciality Insurance for the provider
Looking at my old Hagerty receipts, you are right, they use RLI

OpenTrack have used Texas Insurance Company and Evanston Insurance Company as providers
OnTrack uses Jacob J Katz and Company as the agent but they do not disclose the provider.

I've been using OpenTrack more and more. I was going to do an annual plan this year as it would have saved me $$$ last year but I probably won't do as many events this year. Doing the math, it wouldn't have saved me anything.

Last year I spent $5,700 on track insurance.
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