SupraMKV Interview with Tada-San on 2021 GR Supra

[Prodrift]

I am VERY curious what has some members on here feeling disappointed in the development of the next gen 86. So far I’m just seeing it’s going to be mostly a Subaru but so was my FRS and 86 and I didn’t anticipate the 2nd gen to be different in that regard. So I’m really curious about this so called “withheld information” here..

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[digicidal]

I am VERY curious what has some members on here feeling disappointed in the development of the next gen 86. So far I’m just seeing it’s going to be mostly a Subaru but so was my FRS and 86 and I didn’t anticipate the 2nd gen to be different in that regard. So I’m really curious about this so called “withheld information” here..

I have absolutely no inside information so treat this random speculation for what it is. The vague statements remind me quite a bit of those leaked from Honda insiders during the development of the CRZ - which was interesting to me at the time as my "project car" was a swapped CRX turbo setup.

I presume I don't need to elaborate, but I'm thinking far more leaning toward the PZEV direction with fuel economy being primary in the design? Would be a real tragedy if I'm right... so hopefully I'm way off base on that. Although almost as much of a tragedy as a hobbled powerplant... maybe the loss of a manual option? Seems everyone is heading in that direction now.

 

[KahnBB6]

I am VERY curious what has some members on here feeling disappointed in the development of the next gen 86. So far I’m just seeing it’s going to be mostly a Subaru but so was my FRS and 86 and I didn’t anticipate the 2nd gen to be different in that regard. So I’m really curious about this so called “withheld information” here..

I'm patiently waiting to hear more myself but so far it seems to relate to Toyota actually having had much more of a direct hand in the co-development of the gen1 FR-S/86/BRZ from the chassis to Toyota components to the redesigned Aisin 6-speed M/T, 6-speed automatic, rear differential and Torsen LSD and a fairly involved Toyota redesign of the FA20 engine changes of which included but were not limited to including Toyota's D4-S direction-and-port injection system.

If I have read between the lines accurately (and to be clear that's all I am able to do as I have no little bird of my own to get info from) the 2nd gen not only has no D4-S injection system but will be ALL Subaru engineering with Toyota only having a set of bullet point features and characteristics the new car must have and with Toyota only acting in an advisory capacity.

Personally I have nothing against Subaru products and specifically their WRX, STI, BRZ, OLD Legacy, OLD Forester and anything cool they were produced since the early 90's.

But if you go look at some recent comments in the 2nd gen 86/BRZ thread you'll get a better idea of why some people have trepidation with this approach of only Subaru engineering the new 86. Toyota will failure test everything the same way they always do but the contention has to do with how Subaru meets design standards and requirements versus how Toyota still to this day tends to not meet but always exceed design standards and requirements.

In the 1990's all of the Japanese manufacturers overbuilt their products (some more than others but all did for a time when the Yen was ridiculously strong) and now that is not the case. Plus newer technology and materials construction have all but eliminated the need to "over build" any design.

From all of this I gather it has to do with reliability but I want to remain optimistic. I hope Subaru will surprise and wow us with what they have learned from the gen1 car.

As far as specs go, as long as it's very much like the first car chassis-wise, similar in light weight, not shaped like a computer mouse or WRX (and mind you I like the WRX for the category of car that IT is totally and separately on its own as another type of car entirely), has a 6-speed manual transmission, the same decently sized rear diff and Torsen LSD as the first car, available Brembos, NO stupid huge and distracting Tesla size screen in the middle of the dashboard and of course a 240-250hp turbo boxer engine that can handle being drifted repeatedly... then it will probably be what it should be.

Again though... maybe I am being too optimistic? I hope not.

 

[KahnBB6]

I presume I don't need to elaborate, but I'm thinking far more leaning toward the PZEV direction with fuel economy being primary in the design? Would be a real tragedy if I'm right... so hopefully I'm way off base on that. Although almost as much of a tragedy as a hobbled powerplant... maybe the loss of a manual option? Seems everyone is heading in that direction now.

I mean... for a low volume sports car to not just get one of the existing 1.6-2.4L turbo boxer engines would be a shame to come so soon.

But if this little car, turbo or naturally aspirated, isn't even given a 6-speed manual option? Well then that sure would kill off any remaining interest in what would make such a low powered car fun. I'm speculating here but if, say, it came CVT-only as many Subarus tend to then there would be no point at all in having more power.

Further, IF it were not to have a manual transmission option any longer then what this would invalidate Tada-san's claim that the Supra probably shouldn't have a manual transmission option "because then the 86 has nowhere to go" and "I have to differentiate the 86" (in regards to it offering a manual while the Supra does not).

Surely the existing Aisin 6-speed manual in the gen1 86 wouldn't need much redesign to handle mild turbo boost but there I go being logical and sensible about this.

Hybridization I kind of expect more mainstream cars to adopt like it or not. However even the Honda CR-Z did ONE good thing with its design: it proved that a hybrid sport model could indeed function with a 6-speed manual transmission. And I drove the CR-Z equipped with the CVT option. It *sucked*.

If Honda could do it then Subaru should be expected to if they insist on a hybrid engine.

But this is getting into difficult territory already. I hope this second gen 86 gets some rework of an existing Subaru turbo boxer engine.

 

[digicidal]

If Honda could do it then Subaru should be expected to if they insist on a hybrid engine.

But this is getting into difficult territory already. I hope this second gen 86 gets some rework of an existing Subaru turbo boxer engine.

I hope so too, and I'm sure I'm overly pessimistic regardless. I agree that the 6-speed manual is somewhat of a necessity for the model to survive at all. I just don't think I would take anything Tada-san says as anything more than marketing jargon in most cases. I'm pretty sure he could lipstick a pig (CVT) enough to say "it's really all the transmission anyone needs - I drive it every day" or something similar.

I really hope it somehow is even lighter, retains the manual, and comes with the 1.6L turbo... then it would be a super fun and cheap car with a much more 90's era purity. I don't expect those dreams to fully materialize however.

 

[tfoxyr]

i believe a hybrid system was in the cards for a long time for the 86 and yeah for a purist sports car it really does not make a lot of sense. For me the only way i could be happy with an electrified system would be if a 48v battery spooled up my turbo from like 250 rpm, that would counter the argument of turbo lag and of course would be more future proof for regulations.

On a separate note the upcoming 1.8turbo is said to be around 40% thermal efficient and that smells like hybrid imo.

So unfortunately it could go really bad if the e-boxer system is placed in there, it adds like 70~100kg and it is all about the mileage not the performance.

 

[KahnBB6]

I can see a way of doing a hybrid FR RWD small sportscar LIKE an 86 that just isn’t called an “86”.

Mild hybrid 86 can still keep a 6-speed manual from a pure engineering perspective. The next year Miatas are getting such a system.

A full hybrid type engine can work IF it’s set up for performance like the *philosophy* of the old Lexus GS450h hybrid. That car was not eco focused. It used its hybrid system for a performance boost only and was actually slightly faster than the range topping V8 edition of the same model year. Its combination twin-electric-motor-in transmission was a novel design. But that transmission being a CVT or CVT-like at the core wasn’t.

This is why I say I can see a hybrid approach to a VERY similar car to the 86... but it shouldn’t BE an 86 which is a purist machine.

In order for such a not-86-but-another-name-and-identical-layout little sportscar to work it would have to only emphasize the hybrid power for performance first. It would have to be as bare bones as a fist gen 86. Meaning no stupid screens all over the dash. Instrumentation for the driver and simple interior layout remains as before. The rear end still would need to be a Torsen LSD. Brembos still need to be available.

Torque from the motor slamming as much as it is capable of should be emphasized. Raw. Rewarding impulsive driver inputs. It should be tuned to be a little hellion car. Does not need to be super powerful but would need to FEEL and deliver a respectable kick in the ass if an electric motor is combined. No “silky smooth” ho-hum tune. That would be boring in a hybrid.

Somehow the technology needs to be tuned a little bit raw and that would get it closer to something fun.

All said though for this second generation 86?

Please: Manual transmission, turbo 240-250hp non hybrid, same Torsen LSD, RWD only, optional Brembos, low and pretty chassis like the 1st gen. Mild hybrid okay if unavoidable *so long as* it, similarly, feels raw and retains the 6-speed M/T.

 

[tfoxyr]

I can see a way of doing a hybrid FR RWD small sportscar LIKE an 86 that just isn’t called an “86”.

Mild hybrid 86 can still keep a 6-speed manual from a pure engineering perspective. The next year Miatas are getting such a system.

A full hybrid type engine can work IF it’s set up for performance like the *philosophy* of the old Lexus GS450h hybrid. That can was not eco focused. It used its hybrid system for a performance boost only and was actually slightly faster than the range topping V8 edition of the same model year. Its combination twin-electric-motor-in transmission was a novel design. But that transmission being a CVT or CVT-like at the core wasn’t.

This is why I say I can see a hybrid approach to a VERY similar car to the 86... but it shouldn’t BE an 86 which is a purist machine.

In order for such a not-86-but-another-name-and-identical-layout little sportscar to work it would have to only emphasize the hybrid power for performance first. It would have to be as bare bones as a fist gen 86. Meaning no stupid screens all over the dash. Instrumentation for the driver and simple interior layout remains as before. The rear end still would need to be a Torsen LSD. Brembos still need to be available.

Torque from the motor slamming as much as it is capable of should be emphasized. Raw. Rewarding impulsive driver inputs. It should be tuned to be a little hellion car. Does not need to be super powerful but would need to FEEL and deliver a respectable kick in the ass if an electric motor is combined. No “silky smooth” ho-hum tune. That would be boring in a hybrid.

Somehow the technology needs to be tuned a little bit raw and that would get it closer to something fun.

All said though for this second generation 86?

Please: Manual transmission, turbo 240-250hp non hybrid, same Torsen LSD, RWD only, optional Brembos, low and pretty chassis like the 1st gen. Mild hybrid okay if unavoidable *so long as* it, similarly, feels raw and retains the 6-speed M/T.

dude yes!! let's hope they won't go for the average dude that just wants a good looking coupe that goes from a to b without scaring him.

 

[XtremeMaC]

Mild hybrid okay if unavoidable *so long as* it, similarly, feels raw and retains the 6-speed M/T.

Mild hybrid is a joke for fuel savings. that's pretty much the auto stop/start, which the Supra has. It's the new minimum hybrid norm, so may be unavoidable.

May be far reach, but as last year Toyota sided with Trump's emission standards, I'm inclined to believe, they're having issues meeting new standards. Which may mean they're looking at more drastic steps on 86, which steers it away from being a purist car, with added weight and less-than-ideal weight balance so maybe that's why people think 86 is f'ed

 

[jtsang25]

I am VERY curious what has some members on here feeling disappointed in the development of the next gen 86. So far I’m just seeing it’s going to be mostly a Subaru but so was my FRS and 86 and I didn’t anticipate the 2nd gen to be different in that regard. So I’m really curious about this so called “withheld information” here..

I can see a way of doing a hybrid FR RWD small sportscar LIKE an 86 that just isn’t called an “86”.

Mild hybrid 86 can still keep a 6-speed manual from a pure engineering perspective. The next year Miatas are getting such a system.

A full hybrid type engine can work IF it’s set up for performance like the *philosophy* of the old Lexus GS450h hybrid. That car was not eco focused. It used its hybrid system for a performance boost only and was actually slightly faster than the range topping V8 edition of the same model year. Its combination twin-electric-motor-in transmission was a novel design. But that transmission being a CVT or CVT-like at the core wasn’t.

This is why I say I can see a hybrid approach to a VERY similar car to the 86... but it shouldn’t BE an 86 which is a purist machine.

In order for such a not-86-but-another-name-and-identical-layout little sportscar to work it would have to only emphasize the hybrid power for performance first. It would have to be as bare bones as a fist gen 86. Meaning no stupid screens all over the dash. Instrumentation for the driver and simple interior layout remains as before. The rear end still would need to be a Torsen LSD. Brembos still need to be available.

Torque from the motor slamming as much as it is capable of should be emphasized. Raw. Rewarding impulsive driver inputs. It should be tuned to be a little hellion car. Does not need to be super powerful but would need to FEEL and deliver a respectable kick in the ass if an electric motor is combined. No “silky smooth” ho-hum tune. That would be boring in a hybrid.

Somehow the technology needs to be tuned a little bit raw and that would get it closer to something fun.

All said though for this second generation 86?

Please: Manual transmission, turbo 240-250hp non hybrid, same Torsen LSD, RWD only, optional Brembos, low and pretty chassis like the 1st gen. Mild hybrid okay if unavoidable *so long as* it, similarly, feels raw and retains the 6-speed M/T.

Wasn't this expected. In the next few years most cars are going to go this route or straight EV. It's a sad truth but emission laws internationally are getting stricter.

 

[Bryster]

i almost feel that toyota needs to fire tada-san. sounds like he is more interested in the 4cyl then in the 6cyl? ‍

They can't do that you see, because he's retired

 

[KahnBB6]

Wasn't this expected. In the next few years most cars are going to go this route or straight EV. It's a sad truth but emission laws internationally are getting stricter.

The EV push is ongoing and will continue. It’ll be different but fundamentally I take more issue with the huge unnecessary dash screens, bulbous crossover shapes, design choices and autonomous tech that de-emphasize the role of the singularly focused driver.

I want a couple of last gen great purist cars (with turbos and manuals) to come out now and then I’m very open to electrification but I see it as merely a fundamental change in the driveline of the car itself.... *rather than* a total overhaul of the entire concept of what a car is into a boring bubble or even a hostile takeover of what “driving” or “driver focused” are.

Three simultaneous pushes are affecting the kinds of cars we love. One is the SUV/crossover craze (barf), the other is the whole autonomous thing (no forced or market-coerced adoption please kthanks), and the third is fuel economy and emissions (I’ll miss the best cool gas engines but I get it, ok as soon as the battery tech improves and as long as we get 2-3 speed transmissions or older manual cars converted to EVs, semi-straight cut gears and tuning for raw power delivery).

I’m an optimist. Right now we are in a good window to experience cars like the Supra MKV, 86, GR Corolla, LC-F, Shelby GT-350, BMW M2 Competition, STI, etc.

As things progress and batteries go solid state I can see potential in full EVs when not hampered by Demolition Man style bubble-car designs... but for folks like us this sure won’t ever come in the package of a self-driving taxicab Tesla Model 3 (barf) that you cannot buy parts or service manuals for directly and which seem to present a gray area of whether the buyer even legally owns the car.

In any case, as it has always been before, if the market begins to not offer the kinds of cars or options we are looking for we’ll all just have to get the closest thing, rip out what we don’t want and shove into it what we do want.

This time around that will be by replacing whole logic boards with aftermarket and open source custom replacements, some of which are already beginning to show up on the grassroots level.

But at this current time right now... it would be a little ridiculous if a 2nd gen 86 doesn’t get to be a RWD, 6-speed manual, small 2-door lightweight low to the ground coupe with a driver focused interior (no massive screens) with a 240-250hp turbo engine. That’s not too much to ask before the electrification push with better batteries kicks into higher gear everywhere.

That and a global manual transmission edition of the MKV.

 

[Bryster]

The EV push is ongoing and will continue. It’ll be different but fundamentally I take more issue with the huge unnecessary dash screens, bulbous crossover shapes, design choices and autonomous tech that de-emphasize the role of the singularly focused driver.

I want a couple of last gen great purist cars (with turbos and manuals) to come out now and then I’m very open to electrification but I see it as merely a fundamental change in the driveline of the car itself.... *rather than* a total overhaul of the entire concept of what a car is into a boring bubble or even a hostile takeover of what “driving” or “driver focused” are.

Three simultaneous pushes are affecting the kinds of cars we love. One is the SUV/crossover craze (barf), the other is the whole autonomous thing (no forced or market-coerced adoption please kthanks), and the third is fuel economy and emissions (I’ll miss the best cool gas engines but I get it, ok as soon as the battery tech improves and as long as we get 2-3 speed transmissions or older manual cars converted to EVs, semi-straight cut gears and tuning for raw power delivery).

I’m an optimist. Right now we are in a good window to experience cars like the Supra MKV, 86, GR Corolla, LC-F, Shelby GT-350, BMW M2 Competition, STI, etc.

As things progress and batteries go solid state I can see potential in full EVs when not hampered by Demolition Man style bubble-car designs... but for folks like us this sure won’t ever come in the package of a self-driving taxicab Tesla Model 3 (barf) that you cannot buy parts or service manuals for directly and which seem to present a gray area of whether the buyer even legally owns the car.

In any case, as it has always been before, if the market begins to not offer the kinds of cars or options we are looking for we’ll all just have to get the closest thing, rip out what we don’t want and shove into it what we do want.

This time around that will be by replacing whole logic boards with aftermarket and open source custom replacements, some of which are already beginning to show up on the grassroots level.

But at this current time right now... it would be a little ridiculous if a 2nd gen 86 doesn’t get to be a RWD, 6-speed manual, small 2-door lightweight low to the ground coupe with a driver focused interior (no massive screens) with a 240-250hp turbo engine. That’s not too much to ask before the electrification push with better batteries kicks into higher gear everywhere.

That and a global manual transmission edition of the MKV.

For whatever it's worth,the head of Porsche wants to revive the 914 as an entry level bare bones car that hearkens back to the simplicity of old Porsches, so hope is not lost.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/sport...-like-porsche-is-considering-a-914-successor/
I can't wait until the GR86 gets here

 

[KahnBB6]

^^ I have heard about that and no matter what the drivetrain is, if they stick to the small, light as possible and bare-bones driving experience the 914 or 550 formula it will be great. Long ago I was lucky enough to experience some time in both a 914 and an extremely close to accurate 550 Spyder replica kit car (using a '74 VW Bug chassis heavily modified). A true modern spiritual interpretation of either car by Porsche would be fantastic.

Those cars are like Porsche's long dead equivalent of what the 86 and '83-'87 AE86 are to Toyota.

 

[Matador]

The EV push is ongoing and will continue. It’ll be different but fundamentally I take more issue with the huge unnecessary dash screens, bulbous crossover shapes, design choices and autonomous tech that de-emphasize the role of the singularly focused driver.

I want a couple of last gen great purist cars (with turbos and manuals) to come out now and then I’m very open to electrification but I see it as merely a fundamental change in the driveline of the car itself.... *rather than* a total overhaul of the entire concept of what a car is into a boring bubble or even a hostile takeover of what “driving” or “driver focused” are.

Three simultaneous pushes are affecting the kinds of cars we love. One is the SUV/crossover craze (barf), the other is the whole autonomous thing (no forced or market-coerced adoption please kthanks), and the third is fuel economy and emissions (I’ll miss the best cool gas engines but I get it, ok as soon as the battery tech improves and as long as we get 2-3 speed transmissions or older manual cars converted to EVs, semi-straight cut gears and tuning for raw power delivery).

I’m an optimist. Right now we are in a good window to experience cars like the Supra MKV, 86, GR Corolla, LC-F, Shelby GT-350, BMW M2 Competition, STI, etc.

As things progress and batteries go solid state I can see potential in full EVs when not hampered by Demolition Man style bubble-car designs... but for folks like us this sure won’t ever come in the package of a self-driving taxicab Tesla Model 3 (barf) that you cannot buy parts or service manuals for directly and which seem to present a gray area of whether the buyer even legally owns the car.

In any case, as it has always been before, if the market begins to not offer the kinds of cars or options we are looking for we’ll all just have to get the closest thing, rip out what we don’t want and shove into it what we do want.

This time around that will be by replacing whole logic boards with aftermarket and open source custom replacements, some of which are already beginning to show up on the grassroots level.

But at this current time right now... it would be a little ridiculous if a 2nd gen 86 doesn’t get to be a RWD, 6-speed manual, small 2-door lightweight low to the ground coupe with a driver focused interior (no massive screens) with a 240-250hp turbo engine. That’s not too much to ask before the electrification push with better batteries kicks into higher gear everywhere.

That and a global manual transmission edition of the MKV.

I agree with most of your post, except that I feel like the 86 really doesn't need a turbocharged engine. 240hp, sure.... but let it be NA please.

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