The MKIV vs MKV Thread

[KahnBB6]

I really should do that one day....

Stock vs stock (all supras) the A90 has them all beaten. A80 in second, A60 in third, A70 in fourth..... A40.

Biggest thing jumping into A80... was how more GT it feels. softer, softer steering, slightly more numb. Even with brand new HKS Hipermax IV coils, TRD antiroll bars, TE37SL with 275 tyres all round... Power delivery (GTX35) is a bit more extreme in the A80

However

The A90 really does feel like a Supra. With TRC off it wheelspins and hooligans around like any of the old cars. The interior is far more driver focused, given how low and enclosed you are. It reminds me heavily of the A60 inside.

I often go to 'put the clutch in' in the A90 - just because of how the whole car feels. But it really is a fun, fairly quick and engaging car to drive.

It just needs to be a little louder

Thank you for the comparison! I find it very interesting that the A60 actually is a third for you and the A70 is in fourth! Do you feel your opinion might be different if you were comparing a genuine A70 Twin Turbo R with all the right hardware and factory weight loss?

The A60 interior comparison is something I also noticed early on. I really wanted an A80 style cockpit but once I actually got to sit inside an A90 everything made much more sense. Weirdly it actually does feel very driver-centric to me too even though I've always felt that way about the A80's interior.

Coming from an even more GT-like Z30 SC body with a stock A80 TT engine, A70 transmission, A80 LSD, some suspension work, 275 tires in the rear and even A80 seats... I've wondered just how different a totally stock A80-TT 6-speed must feel in comparison (nope, I've never experienced a stock A80).

It sounds like it's only so different from what I'm already used to (minus a couple hundred pounds in the A80). I kind do wonder if this softer GT-like feel for an A80 is related to Toyota's then-goal of very high speed stability or just because the base chassis (before many modifications) still started from the Soarer/SC chassis design which definitely was about those softer and more GT-like qualities from the get-go.

I agree with the feeling of extreme power delivery from 2JZ engines. Even in stock form with sequential twins it feels somewhat violent when pushed, if still mild on overall horsepower.

From what you relate and from what I've seen in many reviews there is a consensus that the A90 is a much sharper and more focused car. Definitely faster and more efficient stock for stock too given all the much more responsive technology involved after nearly twenty years since the last VVT-i A80 TT left the assembly line.

I've yet to get behind the wheel of an A60 to experience one firsthand but I've got good impressions of the A70 and actually the '89-'92 A70's especially when set up and lightened like TT-R's are one of my favorites. Though they're the biggest and often heaviest of all, haha-- not at all where the A90 has taken this lineage.

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[MA617M]

Yeah, I haven't had the fun of a stock JZA70R.... My A70 is a stripped 1JZ single turbo and it's an absolute delight to drive on the limit. Adjustable, predictable and capable.

I'll add more later- but stock vs stock, 2JZGTE VVti vsB58, The B58 is a far more visceral, angry and fun engine.

 

[2JZ-No-Sh*t]

Who wore it better?

 

[Captain_Kirk]

That wing has too much panel gap on the A90.

 

[KahnBB6]

Needs some Bad Obsession Motorsport level attention to panel gap detail on the A90's rear wing but I like it as a work in progress-- that needs to be finished. And a single exit exhaust like the A80.

 

[supraboi]

https://www.caradvice.com.au/860059...Bf9BbMHOdokLw-csXJQ_wghNcRU5t-SrNFeHwnazKVg4M

Does the new Supra have enough in its genes to compare to the legend that is the JZA80?

This is no performance comparison, but rather a tear down memory lane, as two old mates talk team Toyota.

I’ll address this first point square on and upfront in the opening paragraph – I don’t care that the new Toyota Supra is a part-BMW half-breed.

In fact, neither does Shane Standley, the chap who brought along his apparent ‘real’ Supra, a series-two JZA80 RZ, for comparison's sake.

For those who don’t know much about Toyota chassis codes, let's quickly break down those numbers and letters. Toyota has always kept awesome technical identifiers, and you can tell a lot about an individual Toyota from just a string of letters.

In this case, JZ stands for what engine family resides under the bonnet. A informs you of what chassis it uses (RWD sport models in this instance), and 80 refers to its generational code, though the last digit may change for models with more than one body style.

Consider it the secret language of Toyota boffins.

In the case of the JZA80, those five digits have become code-speak for owners who wish to inform others that they own the bee's knees version. And to not mistake their car for one of the rather unloved pair that is the mark-one 60 series or mark-two 70 series Supra.

RZ signifies that this version is also turbocharged, AKA the one you want.

Shane owned a JZA80 Supra back when they were still in production, which makes him one of the original, and still remaining, die-hard Supra enthusiasts.

If you’ve had one, or attended any of the original Supra club meetings – the ones that predated Facebook – then you’ll likely recognise that name. He still pokes around the traps and runs a part-time business that imports Japanese used car parts called Gorilla Industries.

If he doesn’t care that the new Supra has a lot of BMW in it, you shouldn't either. It’s that simple, really.

When I originally spoke with Shane of the idea of using his car against the new one, he was instantly excited. Much more so, when I pulled up outside his house in an A90 Supra.

He hadn’t been up close with the new Supra before. In fact, he had only seen one from afar in traffic, once. What a treat it was for him to not only get up close and poke around, but also drive the new car down a few nice roads north of Sydney.

“Gorgeous,” Shane said, as he invited his wife outside to have a quick stickybeak, too.

If anything, he was the most deserving candidate for the opportunity, and to be given the chance to express his honest opinion on whether the new car stands proud with that iconic badge on the back.

While he and his wife checked out the new car, I took the time to familiarise myself with my other old friend.

The JZA80 Supra’s cockpit-style cabin remains one of those truly great vehicle interiors. Everything is angled toward the driver and laid out on a single vast plane, unlike any other car from the era.

A bit of this has been lost inside the new A90 Supra, as the cabin’s ornamental sections now favour the passenger, instead of the driver. It manages this change by now gesturing the hard points towards the other occupant of the cabin. Call it inclusion; however, I do miss the pilot-style nature of the older cabin.

After a quick catch-up and look-see around both cars, we filled up and set off in search of good roads.

The weather wasn’t in our favour as it was slightly damp with a continual light sprinkling, but that actually turned out to be a good thing.

I spent the day driving the older JZA80 Supra, as it’s been a long time between drinks for myself. I’ve owned two JZA80 Supras, both naturally aspirated models, one an SZ R, another an SZ, but this was my first time driving a turbocharged example.

If he doesn’t care that the new Supra has a lot of BMW in it, you shouldn't either. It’s that simple, really.
The lag from the turbocharger was hilarious, but borderline nonsensical. Shane’s car has naturally been modified, but not too much to take away from the experience. You really have to wind it up to get it going, but once on song it is quite the powerful experience.

Despite wearing 10.5-inch-wide rear wheels shod with high-quality 275-section tyres, traction was non-apparent.

The six-speed manual, made by Getrag for the application, maintained a classic old-car notchy throw to it. However, it just took what seemed like forever to get the thing going. This is in stark contrast to the new A90 Supra.

Shane and I pulled over for a quick initial chat.

“Mate, the response this thing has is unreal. Power is there, everywhere, all the time!” Shane exclaimed, with a genuine look of disbelief.

“I do miss the manual, and on these sorts of regular, suburban roads, it just feels like any other car, and not really a Supra. I think I need to do a bit more driving.”

He’s right with that lack of instant connection. I honestly felt the same way, too. After 15–20 minutes behind the wheel, I wasn’t instantly head over heels for the thing, either. Only when I began to explore the car properly in the right situation, where it truly comes alive, did I become attached to it.

That’s on a good road, on a brisk morning, with nothing else to do but drive. Which is where we ended up.

The A90’s rigidity and front-end composure are exquisite. Once up at some pace, it laughs off swift directional changes regardless of the terrible road surface, and even in slightly damp conditions.

The levels of inherent chassis grip become hugely noticeable when tic-tacking back and forth to the old car on the same stretch of bitumen.

Whereas the old car clearly makes do with whatever tyre grip there is, struggling to deal with forces in a manner that’s hard to describe other than malleable, the new car feels flat, composed and barely flexing in the same situations.

“Just shows you what nearly 30 years does to a car,” Shane concludes. “I’m now beginning to get this car. It feels absolutely magic up here, like a true Supra.”

Big words from the man himself.

The power delivery of the A90 also makes it feel lightning fast on country roads. True to the Supra bloodline, featuring a straight six with forced induction, the new BMW-sourced power plant does do the badge justice.

They sound somewhat similar, but thanks to their cylinder arrangement, both have this cool level of smoothness to the way they spin.

Their naturally balanced composure lays the groundwork for a vibration-free experience. Also, despite the older car being laggy, you can feel continuity between how each delivers its torque.

Straight-six charm – a small point that remains so significant for the new A90 in terms of making it feel faithful to its past. I rest that point on the fact that Toyota’s decision to stick to the same philosophy was equally vital in making this follow-up as good as the past would suggest.

After another brief chat, we headed back down the good piece of road to share our thoughts over a freshly baked pie from a local establishment.

By this time, Shane had risen to my level of dottiness for the new car. He had grown to really, really like it, and maybe now sees one in his not too distant future.

“I believe that after a week with this thing, I'd actually be in love with it. I’d need more time to grow to that level, but I genuinely see myself getting there, no questions asked,” he mentioned.

“I miss the manual, and I’d not give up my old car for a new one. I have too many memories and feelings tied up in it to exchange it, but to be honest, the new car is better, faster, and easily more useful than my JZA80.

"I think both would be the ultimate scenario for me.”

We both met each other on the point that the A90 Supra continues a legacy. It offers a chance for a new generation of owners, one more romantic over the badge than the first, to get the chance to drive their very own new example off the showroom floor.

It’s faithful as a sequel, too. However, the recipe is almost all there, for us two in particular.

The JZA80 Supra’s cockpit-style cabin remains one of those truly great vehicle interiors.
The chassis, how it behaves, and delivery of power from that wonderful straight-six engine, all prop up its new mature, sophisticated skin.

Endless compliments were thrown our way during the drive. We had people stopping us at the lights just to say “Whoa, what a car” multiple times.

Gauging public reaction is such a wonderful, untainted testing methodology for seeking wider opinion on the subject matter that is design. Most saw something seriously high-end in the new Supra, first assuming that maybe it was something far more exotic.

Despite looking much more mature, it does so via clever integration of its past. Its segmented full-LED headlights bear similarity to the old multiple-projector items found on the JZA80, which at that time were considered high-tech.

Then there’s the rear haunches, which blister out more so on the new Supra. Out back, the iconic JZA80 high-rise spoiler has now been integrated into the tailgate, looking much smarter and more professional.

Family ties aside, the new A90 has incredible presence in the flesh. I say that as I don’t think pictures really convey how emotive the car actually is.

It’s truly one of those Chris Bangle-style efforts that’s best sampled in real life, as opposed to two-dimensionally on your computer or on a screen.

We’re lucky to have the option to buy something new that bears ‘Supra’ on the back. What’s more a triumph is that they’ve managed to achieve this while retaining intrinsics that make a Supra, well, a Supra.

Stand-apart styling, a buttery-smooth turbocharged six, and a chassis that remains rewarding on a good road, yet becomes eerily regular in every other circumstance, even if now to its detriment. All the classic hallmarks of a typical Japanese sports car.

I’ll bring back my previous comment regarding the new A90 Supra being almost there. That point stems from the transmission offering. We’d both really, really love a manual in this car. Maybe that’s just our outdated thinking. Maybe we need to get with the times.

Nothing’s perfect, however, so consider it a genuine complaint to have, as opposed to some vapourware excuse that the project had been overly influenced by BMW.

In an alternative universe where BMW didn’t supply the straight six, and the A90 Supra was instead equipped with a Toyota V6 of some description, I’m sure the internet and its band of armchair critics would still be on fire with furious condemnation of a new version of their precious poster car.

The retention of a straight six was a solid move. A lynchpin, even.

Long live the Supra, even collaboratively so.

 

[vb22]

 

[Axix23]

Don’t understand a word they saying

 

[supraboi]

 

[KahnBB6]

I agree with the reviewer with glasses in the above video about the stock MKIV TT 6-speed being just a very fun and engaging car to drive that can even be a little bit on the edge of scary under certain conditions. I also agree with his point about the JZ having somewhat violent acceleration at times even with the sequential twin turbos. I’m down one gear with an Aisin transmission rather than a Getrag and there’s more weight and length in my chassis but with the rest of the bone stock driveline everything he stated pretty much lines up. A slower car (until you modify it) but definitely a very engaging a thrilling car in the MKIV.

In modified form I’m sure the MKV can be made “scary” to drive as well but from showroom stock condition there is something to be said for a car that puts just a tiny bit of fear in you when you push it hard. The same was said of the mid-80’s Porsche 911 Turbos before things got more refined in the water-cooled era of the 911.

 

[PerformanceSound]

I agree with the reviewer with glasses in the above video about the stock MKIV TT 6-speed being just a very fun and engaging car to drive that can even be a little bit on the edge of scary under certain conditions. I also agree with his point about the JZ having somewhat violent acceleration at times even with the sequential twin turbos. I’m down one gear with an Aisin transmission rather than a Getrag and there’s more weight and length in my chassis but with the rest of the bone stock driveline everything he stated pretty much lines up. A slower car (until you modify it) but definitely a very engaging a thrilling car in the MKIV.

In modified form I’m sure the MKV can be made “scary” to drive as well but from showroom stock condition there is something to be said for a car that puts just a tiny bit of fear in you when you push it hard. The same was said of the mid-80’s Porsche 911 Turbos before things got more refined in the water-cooled era of the 911.

My experience driving both the MKIV and MKV one after the other was that the MKV was obviously faster and more comfortable than the MKIV...but also very very refined for high speed driving. The MKIV (if your not 100% focused on the road) can whip it's rear end very quickly under hard acceleration (Viper-like characteristics). I almost lost control going onto the freeway in a MKIV. That doesn't make it a bad car, however, the age of the car is very apparent when that happens. An LSD in a MKIV is one thing, but all the other tech a MKV has to keep you out of trouble is a whole different ball game. I tried several times to get the MKV to break the rear end loose, and it didn't budge....however, if you hit a bump at high speed, the MKV does get a little squirrelly (reminiscent of the 90's SVT Cobra's). Amplify either one of those two cars' horsepower to double or triple, and you will quickly appreciate the new tech.

I use to believe the engine was the only thing important in a sports car....nope! It's a complete package (i.e., engine, trans, suspension, traction, etc...). The new high-performance sports cars are very very good if you plan on going big power.

 

[KahnBB6]

My experience driving both the MKIV and MKV one after the other was that the MKV was obviously faster and more comfortable than the MKIV...but also very very refined for high speed driving. The MKIV (if your not 100% focused on the road) can whip it's rear end very quickly under hard acceleration (Viper-like characteristics). I almost lost control going onto the freeway in a MKIV. That doesn't make it a bad car, however, the age of the car is very apparent when that happens. An LSD in a MKIV is one thing, but all the other tech a MKV has to keep you out of trouble is a whole different ball game. I tried several times to get the MKV to break the rear end loose, and it didn't budge....however, if you hit a bump at high speed, the MKV does get a little squirrelly (reminiscent of the 90's SVT Cobra's). Amplify either one of those two cars' horsepower to double or triple, and you will quickly appreciate the new tech.

I use to believe the engine was the only thing important in a sports car....nope! It's a complete package (i.e., engine, trans, suspension, traction, etc...). The new high-performance sports cars are very very good if you plan on going big power.

^^ I agree with you about the MKIV. I’ll get some actual driving time in an MKV before long for a firsthand comparison but already I am very impressed with its chassis considering it’s got a shorter wheelbase than before.

The MKIV is old technology and design all around but very good old technology and design. At least from its chassis design with the best of what Toyota could do in 1990 or so it was intended for stable high speed driving at around 150mph. The SC chassis I am on is similar enough even though it is a bit more compromised in comparison.

But even so, none of the modern traction control, LSD, tire and shock absorber technology were available back when the MKIV came out in 1992. The tires and shocks can be upgraded now and there are a *couple* of available aftermarket diffs that are superior to the factory Torsen T-1 LSD (mostly the OS Giken 1.5-way) and aftermarket ECU control can provide improved traction control over stock under acceleration...

...But it is still a high performance vehicle released from 1992. And you’re right, it can, especially with the stock rear 255mm tires and stock Torsen T-1 LSD, get squirrely under some acceleration and low traction circumstances.

It’s manageable at the stock power level and as long as you do some key modifications at 500whp and above AND are always 100% focused on the road and feeling what the back end is doing it can be fine.

I do agree with the almost Viper-like snap-oversteer you can encounter under some circumstances. But this is far more pronounced in an old Viper than it is in an MKIV TT, let alone a stock MKIV TT.

But I have no doubt that modern high performance cars including the MKV are better equipped for safety with double or triple their stock horsepower.

I’m fine with the MKIV driveline at the stock power level for many reasons. Mostly because of CA emissions compliance and because it’s enough power to enjoy the classic car practically and still have everyday fun with it. The engine if modified would make the car much faster (and I’d need a better LSD than the Torsen T-1 and a different suspension and different tires) but I’m not worried about matching what a stock MKV can do with this thing even though I could.

With a real MKIV now I’d probably be tempted to keep it stock for the sake of original value anyway.

But then there is also the high speed handling on track which I feel is also a factor but I don’t see anyone keeping either an MKIV or MKV totally stock for that purpose anyway: the MKIV because big improvements in available aftermarket parts to improve it for track use are commonly available and the MKV because you’d also want, at the very least, to tune the suspension to the settings to exactly the characteristics you’d want to get the best lap times out of it on a racetrack.

Just on the road though... I feel that it’s different from any track scenario. Just on the road, whether or not someone’s MKIV is made as fast as a stock or modified MKV or faster, I feel it’s about fun for the driver rather than maximum lap times or maximum 0-60.

Which is why I do feel that even a stock 2JZ-GTE engine with only “320hp“ (more like 340-345hp or so at the crank, stock) with a manual transmission can be a lot of fun along with that edge of being just a touch “scary” sometimes.

I’d expect a MKV to be even safer with its modern traction control and modern ABS but I still like the idea of an MKV having that little edge of fright that the most iconic classic high performance cars give you.

 

[PerformanceSound]

^^ I agree with you about the MKIV. I’ll get some actual driving time in an MKV before long for a firsthand comparison but already I am very impressed with its chassis considering it’s got a shorter wheelbase than before.

The MKIV is old technology and design all around but very good old technology and design. At least from its chassis design with the best of what Toyota could do in 1990 or so it was intended for stable high speed driving at around 150mph. The SC chassis I am on is similar enough even though it is a bit more compromised in comparison.

But even so, none of the modern traction control, LSD, tire and shock absorber technology were available back when the MKIV came out in 1992. The tires and shocks can be upgraded now and there are a *couple* of available aftermarket diffs that are superior to the factory Torsen T-1 LSD (mostly the OS Giken 1.5-way) and aftermarket ECU control can provide improved traction control over stock under acceleration...

...But it is still a high performance vehicle released from 1992. And you’re right, it can, especially with the stock rear 255mm tires and stock Torsen T-1 LSD, get squirrely under some acceleration and low traction circumstances.

It’s manageable at the stock power level and as long as you do some key modifications at 500whp and above AND are always 100% focused on the road and feeling what the back end is doing it can be fine.

I do agree with the almost Viper-like snap-oversteer you can encounter under some circumstances. But this is far more pronounced in an old Viper than it is in an MKIV TT, let alone a stock MKIV TT.

But I have no doubt that modern high performance cars including the MKV are better equipped for safety with double or triple their stock horsepower.

I’m fine with the MKIV driveline at the stock power level for many reasons. Mostly because of CA emissions compliance and because it’s enough power to enjoy the classic car practically and still have everyday fun with it. The engine if modified would make the car much faster (and I’d need a better LSD than the Torsen T-1 and a different suspension and different tires) but I’m not worried about matching what a stock MKV can do with this thing even though I could.

With a real MKIV now I’d probably be tempted to keep it stock for the sake of original value anyway.

But then there is also the high speed handling on track which I feel is also a factor but I don’t see anyone keeping either an MKIV or MKV totally stock for that purpose anyway: the MKIV because big improvements in available aftermarket parts to improve it for track use are commonly available and the MKV because you’d also want, at the very least, to tune the suspension to the settings to exactly the characteristics you’d want to get the best lap times out of it on a racetrack.

Just on the road though... I feel that it’s different from any track scenario. Just on the road, whether or not someone’s MKIV is made as fast as a stock or modified MKV or faster, I feel it’s about fun for the driver rather than maximum lap times or maximum 0-60.

Which is why I do feel that even a stock 2JZ-GTE engine with only “320hp“ (more like 340-345hp or so at the crank, stock) with a manual transmission can be a lot of fun along with that edge of being just a touch “scary” sometimes.

I’d expect a MKV to be even safer with its modern traction control and modern ABS but I still like the idea of an MKV having that little edge of fright that the most iconic classic high performance cars give you.

If you haven’t driven one yet, you will love it! Promise you.

 

[MA617M]

stock for stock (have both.... well the A80 ain't stock anymore)

A90 was far more savage IMHO. More grip yes, more power, more torque, more compliance.... but also will wheelspin into third in a straight line if you want it to.

A80 felt mushier in comparison - not slow - but mushier.

Make sure when do you these comparisons you have TRC fully off in the A90 - it is a completely different animal with all the nannies off.

 

[Supra93]