Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

[jm6k]

FWIW, GRMN has been big on manuals up to this point. Going as far as to offer a manual in an auto-only car (Mark X) behind an auto-only engine (2GR-FSE). All that development for 100 cars.

Then people had the audacity to say Toyota didn't offer a manual behind the 2GR in the IS350 because it would cost too much to develop (lol).

Jeff

I sat in one of these while traveling in Japan a couple of years ago. Very impressive car; instantly made me angry that we couldn't get something like that in the US.

Sponsored

 

[A70TTR]

In the US, you are punished collectively as we have a distinct lack of people willing to buy such vehicles. Just how it goes sadly (queue people that say this isn't true, then sales targets demonstrate the opposite).

The Japanese love quirky and/or special models and don't mind paying a bit of a premium for them, and due to the way things are run these limited production vehicles are a much easier sell up top as production is right there and the dealers will promote them properly without extra demands.

 

[A70TTR]

The standard I6 A90 is indeed a GR trim car with the only higher tier being GRMN.

As for the 4cyl, I suspect it will be GR all the same, but I know very little about that car (nothing new).


You have to keep in mind that it's a car developed and owned by Gazoo, vs the previous offerings (even 86) that were modified/improved by GR after release. As such, it doesn't really make sense to not be sold as GR IMO.

 

[Bryster]

That would explain the CH-R

 

[93Siro]

B58 valve sizes are 30.1mm (intake) and 28.5mm (exhaust).




Supra will not use a ZF6HP, it will be a ZF8HP, and as far as torque handling capabilities we just don`t know yet. Several versions of the gearbox are sold, with a wide range of factory torque ratings (8HP30 = 300Nm all the way to 8HP90 = 900Nm). Toyota knows these cars will be modified, hopefully they make the right call.

I was making the 6HP as an example for TCU control, i'm aware of 8HP hence the Hellcat mention. On realoem it's mentioned 8HP51Z.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Toyota is trying to meet everyone in the middle with the base and mid-tier models as far as transmissions by offering smooth and quiet auto transmissions to avoid complaints by the customers that will be paying good money for these cars.

That is why the top tier cars will have the "less comfortable" manual transmissions, because the audience they are aimed at will comply with the hardware. In other words, people who buy the GRMN will know what they are getting themselves into, and Toyota will have less of a problem with "comfort" complaints as compared to offering a "less comfortable" manual transmission across the board....more room for headaches than if offered on an exclusive "extreme racer" type trim.

Remember, U.S. customers are not like the rest of the world when it comes to manual transmissions....we tolerate less when spending more. Let's not forget the Getrag V160 debacle.

 

[AsupramkvC]

Toyota is trying to meet everyone in the middle with the base and mid-tier models as far as transmissions by offering smooth and quiet auto transmissions to avoid complaints by the customers that will be paying good money for these cars.

Does that mean Toyota will only be offering manual transmission with the higher end models only; and the rest of the model range will have AT?

 

[Australian of The North]

[content removed]

 

[AsupramkvC]

However, it is toyota, you guys are very good at global pricing, and very good at targeting for affordability. The dealers however - not so much. Just How much thats seeps into the markets outdide Japan and the usa will be very interesting.

I will be very surprised if the USA doesnt have the cheapest entry point for the A90. It might even be expensive there, but it will still be less than elsewhere imo.

When it comes to car price, I usually base it on USA pricing as for the global scale. The price based in US will affect the pricing globally. Tada said price will be ‘limited’ and “acceptable for Toyota fans”. So I really hope the Supra will have Toyota’s affordability. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Bosstee]

I do understand what your saying here, and I don't disagree, but I think your underestimating just how much higher that same effect you can be in other countries, such as Australia an the UK.

In almost all cases, the US has the lowest entry point for global car pricing comparatively, you have volume, demand, competition and thus numbers to do so, manufacturers are better positioned to discount overall.

The uk typically will pay a good amout more for a variety of reasons, and Australia will be forced by an extremely exploited and captive market to pay far more than almost anyone else. Usually double for high end cars.

I havnt been back to Aus for two years since the total collapse of their auto industry, but back then, the m3/4/5 was quite literally double the price of the usa sticker tag when converted.

Here in the uk, it was abdurdly cheaper, but still more than the USA, despite being almost next to the production lines in Germany. I know there is a major difference in the cost of living relative to each country, as we have different relative incomes - but thats not applicable to manufacturers in their pricing, they simply price to best exploit market conditions.

However, it is toyota, you guys are very good at global pricing, and very good at targeting for affordability. The dealers however - not so much. Just How much thats seeps into the markets outdide Japan and the usa will be very interesting.

I will be very surprised if the USA doesnt have the cheapest entry point for the A90. It might even be expensive there, but it will still be less than elsewhere imo.

Definitely agree that there can be huge price differences, but I've also been comparing pricing between cars in EU and US every now and then and advise to look into two things when comparing prices:

1. US prices are usually w/o sales tax which varies for cars depending on state (and city) and can be around 8%, so add that on top. EU prices are almost always showing both whereas the one including tax is usually everyone looks at (big and bold on price lists.)

2. US-spec cars often have different (if so, then usually inferior) brake & suspension components, I doubt this will apply to the MKV, but I've seen this on the 350Z, Genesis Coupe, Corvette.... Best is to find a forum on the car of interest and look into it when comparing.

And, especially when looking at cars dealers have on stock, also look at the trim levels. It's not unusual for countries with a high VAT rate (like nordic EU countries) to offer cars directly with a better package, because if you're paying 40% tax your wallet won't notice the difference in adding a couple upgrades that much.

 

[A70TTR]

Other countries definitely come with their share of issues, which is generally tax and import costs.

Either way, it greatly affects the ability to move cars.

 

[DevonK]

Taking currency rates into account, Canada's pricing for equivalently optioned-out car models tends to be lower than the US's - manufacturers nearly always choose to eat some of the currency difference, sometimes more than 50% of it. We are probably one of the lowest priced markets in the world. However average household after tax income is lower here, largely due to our European-level income taxing policies. Plus we pay about $1k more for Freight/PDI than US buyers, and our auto sales taxes are higher (13% in Ontario, the most populous province).

 

[MA617M]

So the GRMN Mark X has a six speed. You'd nearly bet money on the GRMN A90 having a manual.

 

[A70TTR]

 

[Jeff Lange]

I don't see any contradiction. It can be economically viable to offer something in small batch production that doesn't scale to volume production. So a custom bell-housing that has a 9-hour cut time on the CNC is viable for a production run of 100, but for 10,000-100,000 not so much.

The bellhousing is from an IS250 RA62, the case is from the RA62/63 and the extension housing is from the IS200d/220d RA63. The only thing that was customized was I believe one or two gear ratios and some better synchros for 2nd and 3rd.

My point was that the reason not to offer a manual transmission on the IS350 had nothing to do with the development costs of a transmission. They had the components available and GRMN did it for a limited production run of 100 cars. It was already developed. The reason the IS350 didn't get a manual had nothing to do with development cost, every component needed to build it existed on the shelf. The reason it didn't get a manual was something different altogether.

(My comment was case-specific and doesn't scale well to other models and/or situations, but I think it illustrates well that when an automaker wants to do something, they can do it easily enough, if they don't the reasons are rarely what people think they are. There's a lot that goes on behind the curtain.)

Jeff

Sponsored