Zboy
Well-Known Member
I recall the same rumors floating around online.
https://japanesenostalgiccar.com/the-toyota-s-fr-was-a-mazda-miata-underneath/
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Toyota Teases GR Line Up: Supra MK6, Celica MK8, MR2 MK4, 86 MK3 and GR GT
https://japanesenostalgiccar.com/the-toyota-s-fr-was-a-mazda-miata-underneath/
KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
I remember the rumors and that article. There was another that did some attempted dimensional comparisons with the ND Miata and what was available on the S-FR concept. They did line up pretty closely as I recall.
At the time the S-FR was supposed to be (amazingly for its size) a RWD 2+2 like the GT86/GR86 only smaller.
Interesting how long these niche vehicle collaborations actually gestate but Toyota and Mazda were probably still testing the waters with this idea even back in 2015.
I cannot recall where I read it but there was also some article with, I think, Akio Toyoda acknowledging several years ago that Mazda wanted to keep their Miata all their own core design which he at the time he respected. This despite the tie-up with Fiat for their 124. In the years since something must have changed in their discussions. Probably the realities of needing to share many costs to keep the business case for semi-affordable sportscar models alive today.
Ivan Espinosa, Nissan's new CEO, was recently interviewed at the Japan Mobility Show and the Silvia coupe came up. He wants it back as the entry sports model below the Z and GTR/GT-R but seemed to suggest that outside of his personal wishes it was still a difficult thing to make happen right now (though he definitely sounded as if he genuinely wanted to make it happen and loves the model). He also talked a bit about "collaborations" with other automakers on specific models or on over-arching technologies (mainly with Renault, Mitsubishi and to some future potential extent Honda). My own speculation is that it wouldn't be a surprise if a future new Silvia were to be greenlit as the result of a company to company cost sharing co-design of their own.
Mazda even concerning their Miata doesn't seem to be an exception to this trend that initially started from Toyota. Outside of FWD/AWD-based platforms it seems to be catching on at least for RWD sportscar models.
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KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
Good catches!Toyota released season 4 as a 9 min "movie".
They certainly want us to know they are planning engine offerings that we would strongly associate with the 1JZ-GTE I-6, 2JZ-GTE I-6 and 3S-GTE I-4 (to be succeeded by the G20E turbo).
My guess is the MR2 successor ("Celica" ?) will be the fourth GR model that the final screen hints at.
They don't seem to want to emphasize the GR Yaris. They did did also tease the idea of a GR sedan of some kind a couple of years back but we've only heard and seen some things to suggest the MR2-like vehicle is what they've been working away on.
KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
Yes! The GR GT3 is definitely a given. I guess I separated it a bit in my mind because it's such an enormous price jump from the current more-attainable-for-most GR models. The MR2 concept under the cover in an earlier episode is a plus all the mid engine prototype and test mule talk gives that one away.
It's our guess as to whether the GR GT3 or MR2 successor gets formally introduced first but as you say it's probably the GR GT3 since it's so close to production (other than getting it to meet global emissions).
In the long run this would be more accurate if they acknowledged a 4th AND 5th GR model but one thing at a time.
(They also briefly showed an old Altezza RS200 in episode #1 or #2 but if they've got anything planned in that category they haven't leaked a word since the early days of confirming there would be a 3rd gen GR86 with a comment from an engineer of a speculative potential sedan variant-- which clearly won't be the case now if the next Miata chassis will be tied up with GR86 development. I'd be very surprised if they didn't introduce such a model later on as a sport sedan successor to the Altezza or Mark II / Chaser on but certainly right now. But I have wondered if early development of a 3rd gen GR86 using the Lexus IS RWD sedan platform as a starting point might have possibly shifted over into creating another new GR model entirely if they liked what they had come up with so far. All my speculation but if that ever proves to be the case it would not surprise me).
Captain_Kirk
Well-Known Member
It's almost like Carscoops is following this thread lol.
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/11/toyota-hides-its-real-new-gr-sports-car-in-an-anime-film/
On another note it seems like Mazda is having a hard time with the new RX.
IMO just for cost savings...
RX / Supra
BRZ / Celica (AWD turbo, Yes please!)
Miata / 86
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/11/mazdas-rx-7-successor-meets-the-one-problem-it-cant-engineer-away/
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/11/toyota-hides-its-real-new-gr-sports-car-in-an-anime-film/
On another note it seems like Mazda is having a hard time with the new RX.
IMO just for cost savings...
RX / Supra
BRZ / Celica (AWD turbo, Yes please!)
Miata / 86
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/11/mazdas-rx-7-successor-meets-the-one-problem-it-cant-engineer-away/
KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
It would not surprise me if they did!
However I find it interesting that despite also catching the very last ending screen (1980's monochrome green text over black) as you did they seem to have completely ignored the more modern white screen with very hard to miss all caps bold text drawing viewer attention to "1JZ-GTE", "2JZ-GTE" and "3S-GTE". No mention of that at all yet it's a pretty important hint in Toyota's film.
The Miata and 86 tie-up makes sense especially with Toyota offering to invest substantially in further development of the ND platform to meet their needs (stretching it a bit for one) as well as Mazda's.
The Iconic SP / RX(7/9) sportscar concept I really don't think will share its platform with the Supra MKVI. It seems to still be a slightly smaller vehicle and is designed around a series hybrid rotary turbo drivetrain. The MKVI Supra (and platform shared new Lexus RWD coupe) is in all likelihood going to be bigger and have a traditional front ICE RWD lalyout with hybrid but also a very likely I-6 option.
I *can* see Mazda possibly getting use of that platform for something else in their lineup if their 3.3L inline-six engine is indeed the starting point for a Supra inline-six. But... Mazda also just showed off that big series hybrid electric + rotary turbo 500hp+ crossover coupe, so...
I had not even considered Subaru and Toyota teaming up for a larger more luxury oriented BRZ platform shared with a new Celica AWD turbo "GR-Four". In theory that's an interesting idea and would suit both companies... especially if Subaru instead wanted to bring back the "SVX" model which is a better fit.
...However I think there would be a drivetrain choice conflict since Toyota would want the same transverse front engine AWD layout with their new G20E 2.0L turbo I-4 and Subaru would want one of their longitudinal boxer engines.
With the "Celica" it's still so confusing since they've clearly designed a true MR2 SW20 Turbo successor (with AWD) but seem to want to call it "Celica". If the next GR86 will now share its new platform with the next Miata it will remain a little hardcore 2+2 closed top coupe and it will not be large enough to fit the expectations of Toyota Celica buyers. Conversely a brand new two seater only MR2 SW20 Turbo successor that's a little larger than before is also not going to fit the expectations of "Toyota Celica" buyers.
And yet there's really not much of anything at this time to suggest the new "Celica" won't be a separate model name from that new MR2 SW20 Turbo successor chassis.
It's so unfortunate. Mazda always gets so close but is always cash strapped and every time they do the next major tightened emission standards are just around the corner.
I really wish they had been able to move ahead with this one. Maybe their carbon capture exhaust system will be the key they have needed. But even if it is it seems they can only manage to afford to make a bunch of SUVs, one semi-upscale economy hatchback and the Miata.
GRMan
Well-Known Member
https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/...is-following-americas-retreat-on-evs-e46b4f6b
The way I see it is Mazda, like Alfa, Audi, Ford, Lotus, Mercedes Porsche, Volvo and some others were betting on EV to be the dominant and perhaps (for some) the only technology in their offering, like from about a decade ago. The RX7 sucessor was planned as an EV with a snall rotary engine as a charger (dumb). The market has since spoken, customers do not like EV as much as what the manufacturers have thought, with sales plummeting.
Now with the reversal and the slow down on EV mandate from major markets, the writing is on the wall for Mazda to go back to the drawing board to engineer a hybrid RX7 (with a rotary actually drving the wheels, which is what they should have visioned for from day one). The issue is now they probably donāt have the fundings..thus the delay. I blame it on wrong business strategy.
The way I see it is Mazda, like Alfa, Audi, Ford, Lotus, Mercedes Porsche, Volvo and some others were betting on EV to be the dominant and perhaps (for some) the only technology in their offering, like from about a decade ago. The RX7 sucessor was planned as an EV with a snall rotary engine as a charger (dumb). The market has since spoken, customers do not like EV as much as what the manufacturers have thought, with sales plummeting.
Now with the reversal and the slow down on EV mandate from major markets, the writing is on the wall for Mazda to go back to the drawing board to engineer a hybrid RX7 (with a rotary actually drving the wheels, which is what they should have visioned for from day one). The issue is now they probably donāt have the fundings..thus the delay. I blame it on wrong business strategy.
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johnny_10196
Well-Known Member
^Same with the Lexus supercar concept. It was planned as an EV but it was reworked as seen with the new larger updated concept and now it will supposedly have some kind of V8.
GRMan
Well-Known Member
Thatās what bean counters CEO and board of directors donāt understand. These days fans donāt buy sports car just because itās fast. It needs to be fun, to be theatrical, stirring up emotions, man machine as one, a dancing partnerā¦all these attributes are important.
EV is sn appliance, electric motors alone canāt stir up emotions like an I6 or F6, V8, V10 or V12ā¦even the Gen 2 GR Yarisās 1.6 I3 feels more special.
EV is sn appliance, electric motors alone canāt stir up emotions like an I6 or F6, V8, V10 or V12ā¦even the Gen 2 GR Yarisās 1.6 I3 feels more special.
Ron L
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Yup. A guy I did auto-X with got a Tesla. He won his class AS at the SCCA Nationals and then got rid of it. He said it was the most boring car he ever drove!
jmikes
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You say that like there isn't an entire generation of people that have been brainwashed by tiktok/instagram into believing big horsepower and 0-60 times are all that matters.
KahnBB6
Well-Known Member
All it took was one drive in a Tesla Model 3 RWD for me to get bored with it. I already hated how it looked on the outside and inside but I was willing to see how a friend's car felt. It was interesting at first... but it wasn't fun. And the style I drove it in quickly made the battery charge level go down.
It had no soul and looked and felt boring as hell. Plus don't expect to have a great time if owning one once its out of warranty. Discontinuing long term parts support only ten years from the date of manufacture is laughable.
...
Now what I would like to just test drive to get a feel for what manufacturers who aren't barf-tastic Tesla are trying is the Dodge Charger EV, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. I would never consider buying either car because one is just a huge and heavy land tank (although I give them strong points for releasing a BEV that is a traditionally styled and relatively good looking true two door coupe with a proper instrument cluster catering to the driver) and the other is a crossover... but in both cases but especially in the case of the Hyundai the engineers actually attempted to make something engaging with the powertrain. And reviewers of the Ioniq 5 N seem to think it's fun to drive.
Also the Ioniq 6 N also just came out and while I applaud it not being a crossover but an actual sedan the styling still isn't my thing. But I'd drive that too just to see how they're doing with the implementation of their second EV performance model.
Their concept Vision 74 coupe looks very cool but that's not going to be produced in big numbers or be very affordable. I also won't be surprised if the styling of the concept changes drastically in production form.
Ultimately an EV will always feel different from a combustion car. The technology is nowhere near mature for fun and actually engaging enthusiast type cars that we might possibly care about long term. But so far it's clear that the intent of how the electric car is designed and what is emphasized in the programming is something to pay attention to. Both Porsche and Ferrari seem to also think so with their own EV experiments.
But any Tesla? They're designed by and for people who find the idea of a car that is actually fun and engaging for enthusiast drivers to be a joke to them. And that attitude really shows through in their designs and how they feel to drive.
Other automakers have a very different attitude when it comes to how they design their performance and/or potentially fun EVs and are at least trying out some ideas that non-car people do not care about and largely scoff at.
Another recent example that we won't be getting in the U.S. but which made me pay attention is the Renault 5 Turbo 3E prototype. It's styled very much like the 1980's R5 Turbo series and for a BEV it's pretty spartan inside (in a traditional performance car interior way... not the way Tesla does it) and has very few screens and driver instrumentation just behind the steering wheel.
Two rear mounted in-wheel motors making a combined RWD 550hp is a good nod to the original R5 Turbo 1 & 2. I haven't seen or read much yet on well how Renault did or did not succeed at making them feel fun behind the wheel but visually at least they're on the right track. Certainly no average Tesla buyer would want one if given the option and that's a good thing.
It had no soul and looked and felt boring as hell. Plus don't expect to have a great time if owning one once its out of warranty. Discontinuing long term parts support only ten years from the date of manufacture is laughable.
...
Now what I would like to just test drive to get a feel for what manufacturers who aren't barf-tastic Tesla are trying is the Dodge Charger EV, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. I would never consider buying either car because one is just a huge and heavy land tank (although I give them strong points for releasing a BEV that is a traditionally styled and relatively good looking true two door coupe with a proper instrument cluster catering to the driver) and the other is a crossover... but in both cases but especially in the case of the Hyundai the engineers actually attempted to make something engaging with the powertrain. And reviewers of the Ioniq 5 N seem to think it's fun to drive.
Also the Ioniq 6 N also just came out and while I applaud it not being a crossover but an actual sedan the styling still isn't my thing. But I'd drive that too just to see how they're doing with the implementation of their second EV performance model.
Their concept Vision 74 coupe looks very cool but that's not going to be produced in big numbers or be very affordable. I also won't be surprised if the styling of the concept changes drastically in production form.
Ultimately an EV will always feel different from a combustion car. The technology is nowhere near mature for fun and actually engaging enthusiast type cars that we might possibly care about long term. But so far it's clear that the intent of how the electric car is designed and what is emphasized in the programming is something to pay attention to. Both Porsche and Ferrari seem to also think so with their own EV experiments.
But any Tesla? They're designed by and for people who find the idea of a car that is actually fun and engaging for enthusiast drivers to be a joke to them. And that attitude really shows through in their designs and how they feel to drive.
Other automakers have a very different attitude when it comes to how they design their performance and/or potentially fun EVs and are at least trying out some ideas that non-car people do not care about and largely scoff at.
Another recent example that we won't be getting in the U.S. but which made me pay attention is the Renault 5 Turbo 3E prototype. It's styled very much like the 1980's R5 Turbo series and for a BEV it's pretty spartan inside (in a traditional performance car interior way... not the way Tesla does it) and has very few screens and driver instrumentation just behind the steering wheel.
Two rear mounted in-wheel motors making a combined RWD 550hp is a good nod to the original R5 Turbo 1 & 2. I haven't seen or read much yet on well how Renault did or did not succeed at making them feel fun behind the wheel but visually at least they're on the right track. Certainly no average Tesla buyer would want one if given the option and that's a good thing.
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GRMan
Well-Known Member
Yes but they often end up buying Tesla or BYD.
They will grow old and buy big heavy SUV because driving dynamics is a foreign language to them. If they somehow made it and loaded with money they will go for an exotic for the snob factor, thatās all they want from motoring.
With that said, the amount of teenagers yelling at me to ārev itā is encouraging enough to believe there is still plenty of hope from the younger generations. The B58 with the HKS dual did not disappoint in the sound department.
Alternatively, I would be twiddling my thumb if i was sitting in a 3000hp Xiaomi SU7 or a 600hp Ioniq 6 when that happens.
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