Why I'm NOT Hyped About The New Toyota Supra

[HcNine-Six]

Here’s some food for thought. The Supra was built in partnership with Bmw. What came out of it was the b58 engine. Now, bmw have the history of releasing their non “M” engines first before releasing an upgrade version. Currently the b58 “M” version is in the new x3/x4 M, called the s58. What I see is, once the new m3/m4 goes into production, you will see the s58 in the Supra as a special edition(SE) with the same manual transmission as the M cars and twin turbos. The end.

Interesting take!

The way I see it, unfortunately as some people may be disheartened by it, I do not see BMW sharing an "M" motor with Toyota... That is just me though.

I feel as if it will probably offer the same upgrades the 86/FRS/BRZ have since it's intro, virtually none. I can see some small fascia upgrades and other small tweaks but I think Toyota would consider changing platforms completely before slapping on another 130 some odd horsepower difference. It is just how Toyota rolls... I know there has been talks about a GRMN and upgrades down the road but I do not think they will really amount to much.

Here's to hoping though!

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[MA617M]

FWIW, I upgraded my JZA80 to Drive by Wire. It's awesome.

 

[Half Vast]

^ huh? are you really being an apologist here?

Ummm, not being an apologist in any shape or fashion. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

you do realize ever since the turn of the millennium, virtually all sports cars utilize a drive by wire throttle/brake from the GT86/BRZ to the M2/4, it has no impact on developing a manual.

Sure, while I have nowhere the car knowledge that most do on this forum, I do know that varying degrees of electronic control for vehicles, have been around for quite some time. Nowhere did I mention anything about an impact on the design of a manual transmission. My point was that with an automatic transmission, Toyota can mostly assure that any driver can operate the Supra within its safe performance envelope.

And what does shaving 1 or 2 seconds on the streets actually do?

I don't know. I do know that the ZF8 HP has shift times of 200 milliseconds, according to the specs. When folks talk about winning or losing by tenths of a second, seems like 200 milliseconds would be a big deal. Again, I don't know since I don't drive my cars on a track and not a street racer by any stretch.

Street driving is all about feel, screw paper specs.

Agreed. The reason to drive a sports car, on the street or track, is to feel the interaction between the road and the vehicle. I get that. The manual transmission provides the driver more influence on that tactile interaction.

My Mk3 was a manual. Loved driving that thing. My Cayman S was a Tiptronic. While I enjoyed driving it, I always wished I went manual with it. I thought I would like the Tiptronic but ultimately didn't care for the lag in shifts.

I'll wait to form my opinion to decide if I'll hold out for a manual when I have an opportunity to actually drive a new Supra.

 

[kona61]

Ummm, not being an apologist in any shape or fashion. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.


Sure, while I have nowhere the car knowledge that most do on this forum, I do know that varying degrees of electronic control for vehicles, have been around for quite some time. Nowhere did I mention anything about an impact on the design of a manual transmission. My point was that with an automatic transmission, Toyota can mostly assure that any driver can operate the Supra within its safe performance envelope.


I don't know. I do know that the ZF8 HP has shift times of 200 milliseconds, according to the specs. When folks talk about winning or losing by tenths of a second, seems like 200 milliseconds would be a big deal. Again, I don't know since I don't drive my cars on a track and not a street racer by any stretch.


Agreed. The reason to drive a sports car, on the street or track, is to feel the interaction between the road and the vehicle. I get that. The manual transmission provides the driver more influence on that tactile interaction.

My Mk3 was a manual. Loved driving that thing. My Cayman S was a Tiptronic. While I enjoyed driving it, I always wished I went manual with it. I thought I would like the Tiptronic but ultimately didn't care for the lag in shifts.

I'll wait to form my opinion to decide if I'll hold out for a manual when I have an opportunity to actually drive a new Supra.

Tiptronics are the crappy old automated single clutch manuals. They are all terrible. Plus 200 milliseconds is not very long especially when you consider how long a human takes to shift a manual.

 

[Half Vast]

Tiptronics are the crappy old automated single clutch manuals. They are all terrible.

Didn't know that when I bought the vehicle, but know it now. As I said, I didn't care for the shift lag.

While I would like to have an A90 with a manual transmission, that car is not immediately available. I owe it to myself to drive the 2020 A90 to determine if it is something I can live with. If I don't like the experience, I can wait to see if Toyota moves toward a manual transmission or not.

I do know that if both versions were available today, I'd not give the automatic a second thought; manual all the way.

 

[SupraFiend]

Negatory. Titronic was a manufacturer's marketing buzzword for a traditional automatic that could be manually shifted with buttons/levers. You know, exactly like the mk5 has. No clutches involved.

But speaking of the LFA, a single clutch manual is exactly what the LFA had, not a real automatic like the mk5 has. I actually like them better. Implementation is key obviously, both BMW (m3 gts) and Toyota's early attempts (MRS SMG) were a little primitive, but they have distinct advantages. Namely they are lighter, simpler and cheaper to maintain. It's not dead tech yet either, the Aventador went with a single clutch sequential manual.

The way I see it, unfortunately as some people may be disheartened by it, I do not see BMW sharing an "M" motor with Toyota... That is just me though.

I feel as if it will probably offer the same upgrades the 86/FRS/BRZ have since it's intro, virtually none.

... and every Toyota sports car ever sold internationally. At least in the significant power train upgrade department.

LOL...I sure hope not for a $50K car.

Yeah I don't know what tell you on that one... sorry?

 

[RyanGT3RS]

Negatory. Titronic was a manufacturer's marketing buzzword for a traditional automatic that could be manually shifted with buttons/levers. You know, exactly like the mk5 has. No clutches involved.

But speaking of the LFA, a single clutch manual is exactly what the LFA had, not a real automatic like the mk5 has. I actually like them better. Implementation is key obviously, both BMW (m3 gts) and Toyota's early attempts (MRS SMG) were a little primitive, but they have distinct advantages. Namely they are lighter, simpler and cheaper to maintain. It's not dead tech yet either, the Aventador went with a single clutch sequential manual.



... and every Toyota sports car ever sold internationally. At least in the significant power train upgrade department.



Yeah I don't know what tell you on that one... sorry?

Have you driven a ZF8? If not and you get a chance drive a M5 or Alfa, it’s really good!! I would say the only other transmission that is better and more “involving/aggressive” would be the PDK from Porsche which is a ZF with Porsche tuning.

 

[HcNine-Six]

Negatory. Titronic was a manufacturer's marketing buzzword for a traditional automatic that could be manually shifted with buttons/levers. You know, exactly like the mk5 has. No clutches involved.

But speaking of the LFA, a single clutch manual is exactly what the LFA had, not a real automatic like the mk5 has. I actually like them better. Implementation is key obviously, both BMW (m3 gts) and Toyota's early attempts (MRS SMG) were a little primitive, but they have distinct advantages. Namely they are lighter, simpler and cheaper to maintain. It's not dead tech yet either, the Aventador went with a single clutch sequential manual.



... and every Toyota sports car ever sold internationally. At least in the significant power train upgrade department.



Yeah I don't know what tell you on that one... sorry?

You’re not wrong!

I was just saying that I expect it to follow the same suit. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Don’t have anything against it!

 

[kona61]

Negatory. Titronic was a manufacturer's marketing buzzword for a traditional automatic that could be manually shifted with buttons/levers. You know, exactly like the mk5 has. No clutches involved.

But speaking of the LFA, a single clutch manual is exactly what the LFA had, not a real automatic like the mk5 has. I actually like them better. Implementation is key obviously, both BMW (m3 gts) and Toyota's early attempts (MRS SMG) were a little primitive, but they have distinct advantages. Namely they are lighter, simpler and cheaper to maintain. It's not dead tech yet either, the Aventador went with a single clutch sequential manual.



... and every Toyota sports car ever sold internationally. At least in the significant power train upgrade department.



Yeah I don't know what tell you on that one... sorry?

Oh my apologies. I thought it was a single clutch. The first auto Porsche for me was a 997S with the PDK.

However, I would argue they are terrible. All the cars I’ve ever ridden in/ driven with one were terrible, Maserati GT, F430, Gallardo, E46 M3, E60 M5, etc. All of them have excessive excessive clutch wear and cost an arm and a leg to replace. Actuators go out and hydraulic pumps fail. This is on top of the fact they are terrible to drive. Around town they lurch and stumble. The shifts in some of those cars feels like someone is dumping the clutch with every shift.

 

[XtremeMaC]

It's funny how a lot of people say technology makes cars uninteresting and make people look like better drivers than they are, yet you haven't driven any of these cars at speed in a proper environment. All these technologies do is to make the car faster than ones that don't have the technology by optimizing how the components work with each other. Guess what, you still need to drive the car. And here is the BIG BUT, if you are a shitty driver, these technologies won't help you because you are a shitty driver and having a more analog car doesn't mean you are a less shitty driver either. It goes both ways.

True, look at old cars with no traction control, no moving spoilers, etc. they surely were more difficult and less safe to drive and required immense coordination. However, you, as the driver pretty much controlled all these aspects, daily driven or racing. That's the thrill factor. That's driver input, it's variable. Of course if you are a shitty drive nothing can save you..

I have a manual and daily drive it with TC off. Sure I have limited slip that provides more control, but having the driver control, being connected to the road and react when road is slipping is exhilarating and fun. I feel when my tire balance/alignment is off, I feel when I'm losing traction, I know when I'm power sliding... With too much tech, you get assisted steering with no feel, traction control that kicks in all the time, because you don't know better, because you don't feel it. step on the gas and off you go...to me is boring. having A/T may be safer and faster as you don't have to lose focus and/or move your hands around, but less fun.

Sure if your only goal is racing, shaving a split second, all that tech input makes the car safer and easier to drive or more controllable, but again if you are so dedicated in racing, you probably modify the vehicle in many ways...add spoilers that weren't there, add stickier tires that weren't there, upgrade to bigger brakes, lower the vehicle, etc... what I'm trying to say it, a factory vehicle as is, is lap-able few times before you feel the need to modify certain aspects of it including, if you could easily add, more control...

As a daily driver, I don't care too much for the tech that makes the car go faster if it takes my input away.
As track day car, the tech adds safety.
If I'm in a class with exact same cars, it's the driver that makes all the difference, but if there are other brands in the class, and Car A has too much tech than Car B, then it's like having a handicap... this is one of the reasons F1 is getting less popular... and people are trying to regulate it more..
that's just me.

 

[86Driver]

But if you're going to be in this price range as a buyer soon and you, like some of us, prefer only a manual automobile then your equivalent options would be the Porsche Cayman 6MT, BMW M2 Competition 6MT, BMW M4 6MT, Mustang GT350 (6MT only), Camaro SS 6MT & ZL1 6MT, a used 911 6MT or 7MT, and... hmm... I mean there is the C7 Corvette 7MT also but it's kind of big. Those would be the main suspects.

This for me is it...
For similar money I'd buy a Cayman first (manual or auto) over the new Supra. And I personally dig the new Supra, but when I can have a Cayman... with manual/auto/engine options (or a Boxster if you want the roof off) + the Porsche quality, brand and re-sale value it just kills the Supra off as a new car for me.
Even a used 911 is attractive considering most won't have huge mileage on them.

I'm thinking of waiting a couple of years and seeing what a lowish mileage, second hand Supra will cost.

 

[KahnBB6]

I'm thinking of waiting a couple of years and seeing what a lowish mileage, second hand Supra will cost.

That, or in a couple of years there might exist new model year Supra MKV's with better options for not much more money*, (*excluding tacked on eye-roll inducing ADM of course).

 

[Captain_Kirk]

 

[vb22]

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I like this guy because he is actually making solid points without being an absolute fuckhead. He isn't bullshitting and actually doesn't come off as a douchebag. As someone who thinks that this new Supra is pretty solid, I 100% agree with his concerns and makes a solid backup reasoning to what he says. I hope he sees this comment because I for one agree with him.

People like him are in the know in terms of car buying and is able to purchase this kind of car unlike your other dumbass 9 year olds and pre-teens who live in their parent's basements who want the STU STU STUUUUUU 1000 hp bullshit, or the retarded dumbass 90's kids who only think about F&F who also live in their parent's basements, or the old fart 167 year olds who think a Ford or Chevy is better than this and crack dumbass old people jokes.

This guy is someone who actually deserves respect because 1. He is in the position to buy these cars, 2. He doesn't resort to bitching or whining and gives good reasons, and 3. He doesn't think only about the MkIV, or F&F, or thinking about the STUU STUU STUUUUU or 1000 hp.

People like superspeedersrob and Vehicle Virgins are the biggest jokes of the car community as they don't know what the fuck they're on about. However, THIS GUY GETS IT AND HAS LEGIT CONCERNS. The only thing I will say though is that he should trust Toyota reliability. They would never build an unreliable car. Otherwise, props to this guy because he actually makes a cohesive argument without resorting to being the biggest idiot on the internet. I respect you Arty.

People on the internet think our community is dense, but it is YOU (and I mean the internet here) who can't think past the first step and fumble on everything in your life. Y'all resort to whining like a little bitch and are unable to give good reasoning or get all shouty and shit. Or simply wanting to push their own hate/agenda. We actually understand shit and aren't just dumb fanboys. We think about everything here.

This Supra isn't perfect and there isn't anyone in this forum who denies that, but on the other hand, it isn't the car the majority of the retarded car community think it is.

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ALSO: DSPORT's review makes a lot of sense. It isn't bullshit either that that other guy who was whining like a mfker. You know which one I mean.

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