TBK's Time Attack Build: MK-BRX

[TBK]

Running 2 maps, both with meth and flex fuel enabled.

Red is pump + meth low boost
Blue is pump + meth high boost
Green is pump + meth + E20 (also map 2)

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[razorlab]

Running 2 maps, both with meth and flex fuel enabled.

Red is pump + meth low boost
Blue is pump + meth high boost
Green is pump + meth + E20 (also map 2)

Pure800? Are you using Rev2 to control meth?

RIP your trans.

 

[TBK]

Pure800? Are you using Rev2 to control meth?

RIP your trans.

No Rev2

Will try to answer the trans question to the best of my abilities. I'm not an expert, but this has been my logic all throughout. Please challenge at will. Point form because I'm lazy, and to make it easier to challenge individual points.

1) as far as absolute figures go, i think it's important to remember that different dynos read differently, obv. So I did first have a look at a fair few other cars that have come off of this Dyno with similar numbers.

2) Sam is not a rookie Supra tuner. Yes this may be an appeal to authority to some extent, but it's just a small thing in the grand scheme anyway.

3) these often go hand in hand, but sometimes issues caused by heat (which is generated by torque) is blamed on torque itself. So controlling temps goes quite a bit in protecting the trans. Aside from the obvious mods, I don't plan on doing 30 min sessions, so there's that too.

4) the number itself on the highest setup still seems reasonable. 628. The car was on the dyno for an inordinate amount of time....23 revisions. Never showed signs of any slippage

5) won't be taking any risks. The moment I feel any slippage, I'll be doing something about it.

6) nary a torque spike in sight. Smooth ramp up. Trans likes that

7) XHP stage 3 does help

 

[razorlab]

No Rev2

Will try to answer the trans question to the best of my abilities. I'm not an expert, but this has been my logic all throughout. Please challenge at will. Point form because I'm lazy, and to make it easier to challenge individual points.

1) as far as absolute figures go, i think it's important to remember that different dynos read differently, obv. So I did first have a look at a fair few other cars that have come off of this Dyno with similar numbers.

2) Sam is not a rookie Supra tuner. Yes this may be an appeal to authority to some extent, but it's just a small thing in the grand scheme anyway.

3) these often go hand in hand, but sometimes issues caused by heat (which is generated by torque) is blamed on torque itself. So controlling temps goes quite a bit in protecting the trans. Aside from the obvious mods, I don't plan on doing 30 min sessions, so there's that too.

4) the number itself on the highest setup still seems reasonable. 628. The car was on the dyno for an inordinate amount of time....23 revisions. Never showed signs of any slippage

5) won't be taking any risks. The moment I feel any slippage, I'll be doing something about it.

6) nary a torque spike in sight. Smooth ramp up. Trans likes that

7) XHP stage 3 does help

Are you running less boost in 6th+? Because all those line items are the same as me and it started slipping in 6th+ on shift with less torque in the beginning of sessions. Dynojets are the more consistent dynos out there unless it's running some crazy CF factor.

628 is 100% not reasonable in 6th gear for a track supra on stock trans. Especially because i can see that full torque is RIGHT where the shift lands going into 6th gear.

Are you running CustomRom2 Or 1? If you aren't running 2 then RIP your trans in 6th+ as you can't run different boost per gear.

Sam is seen as not a rookie tuner but he takes a lot of short cuts in tuning (probably because he is hanging out with the ladies every night, I mean... in car crashes every week...). I've seen it first hand. Lightning bolt tunes.

Is it a Pure800?

Also, since you aren't running Rev2 controller, what are you current safe guards when you run low on meth injection? Since you are using it as a fuel, not just cooling.

 

[TBK]

Are you running less boost in 6th+? Because all those line items are the same as me and it started slipping in 6th+ on shift with less torque in the beginning of sessions. Dynojets are the more consistent dynos out there unless it's running some crazy CF factor.

628 is 100% not reasonable in 6th gear for a track supra on stock trans. Especially because i can see that full torque is RIGHT where the shift lands going into 6th gear.

Are you running CustomRom2 Or 1? If you aren't running 2 then RIP your trans in 6th+ as you can't run different boost per gear.

Sam is seen as not a rookie tuner but he takes a lot of short cuts in tuning (probably because he is hanging out with the ladies every night, I mean... in car crashes every week...). I've seen it first hand. Lightning bolt tunes.

Is it a Pure800?

Also, since you aren't running Rev2 controller, what are you current safe guards when you run low on meth injection? Since you are using it as a fuel, not just cooling.

Yeah pure800

Also this is Sam Performance, not Sameh. Sam owns quite possibly the biggest shop in town. Sameh has been too hard to reach, but as I just found out, this may have been the only time his excuse was def legit. His mother passed away (confirmed).

Customrom2, with per gear boost taper. Trans temps stay flat and shifts are clean.

The torque does taper off into 5th. If 5th didn't taper, there'd be a tiny torque bump or shaper rise right after the shift, because boost and load increase slightly due to aerodynamic and drivetrain load. But it's a smooth flatter curve, so that's the per gear torque management/ load capping into 5th.

Edit: forgot to answer the safeguard question. I have a low level sensor to start with, so my gauge blinks when low. But map 1 is also made to be driven without meth if needed, just not pushed to the absolute limit

 

[razorlab]

Yeah pure800

Also this is Sam Performance, not Sameh. Sam owns quite possibly the biggest shop in town. Sameh has been too hard to reach, but as I just found out, this may have been the only time his excuse was def legit. His mother passed away (confirmed).

Customrom2, with per gear boost taper. Trans temps stay flat and shifts are clean.

The torque does taper off into 5th. If 5th didn't taper, there'd be a tiny torque bump or shaper rise right after the shift, because boost and load increase slightly due to aerodynamic and drivetrain load. But it's a smooth flatter curve, so that's the per gear torque management/ load capping into 5th.

Edit: forgot to answer the safeguard question. I have a low level sensor to start with, so my gauge blinks when low. But map 1 is also made to be driven without meth if needed, just not pushed to the absolute limit

So yes you are running less boot in 6th plus? Not taper. Taper is actually the opposite strategy you want. Boost knows nothing about aerodynamics. Target boost is target boost.

 

[TBK]

So yes you are running less boot in 6th plus? Not taper. Taper is actually the opposite strategy you want. Boost knows nothing about aerodynamics. Target boost is target boost.

Ok this is where I start to get really out of my depths. So potentially ignorant responses incoming, please bear with me.

AFAIK you can and should use both, less boost and torque taper....with CR2 allowing me to shape torque by gear and rpm

And just to be clear, when I said taper I meant controlled torque roll-off.

 

[razorlab]

I went back and re-read the last couple posts of mine and realized I was coming across as critical when I meant to come across as asking questions and sharing information. Apologies for that.

As far as running lower boost in 6th+, I mean something like this below. Also notice that at approx 5300 where the gear shift lands in 6th is the most important to run low enough boost/torque.

 

[TBK]

I went back and re-read the last couple posts of mine and realized I was coming across as critical when I meant to come across as asking questions and sharing information. Apologies for that.

As far as running lower boost in 6th+, I mean something like this below. Also notice that at approx 5300 where the gear shift lands in 6th is the most important to run low enough boost/torque.

Tbh I didn't feel like you were unnecessarily critical. On the contrary, I appreciate the time you take to share your thoughts. And on my part, I'm speaking less from a point of authority or knowledge and more so trying to properly articulate my thought process so I can figure out if I'm on the right track or not.

So looking at the graph it seems like we're kind on the same page. I think.

I want to find out why the plots look different despite what in sure is torque being limited. And there could be multiple reasons. I don't know which ones or which combo of reasons are in play, but I'll find out.

My plot shows no visible dip around the rpm where the car is EXPECTED to shift into 6th. So I think you're assuming I'm holding full boost and torque through the 5th to 6th shift. But the thing is, I don't think Dyno plots always reflect the per gear differences. E.g. If my pulls were doe in 4th and 5th, the car is never shifted into 6th to begin with. So it's not always possible to tell what torque looks like in 6th. The plot measures wheel torque vs rpm not per gear torque strategy.

Also I know on customrom2 torque cna be managed by load rather than raw boost. So it's possible for the boost line to stay flat while actual torque delivered to the clutch is slightly reduced. So could just be a visual thing.

I'm not sure if any of that makes sense. I think I'll just go ahead and ask Sam...

 

[razorlab]

Tbh I didn't feel like you were unnecessarily critical. On the contrary, I appreciate the time you take to share your thoughts. And on my part, I'm speaking less from a point of authority or knowledge and more so trying to properly articulate my thought process so I can figure out if I'm on the right track or not.

So looking at the graph it seems like we're kind on the same page. I think.

I want to find out why the plots look different despite what in sure is torque being limited. And there could be multiple reasons. I don't know which ones or which combo of reasons are in play, but I'll find out.

My plot shows no visible dip around the rpm where the car is EXPECTED to shift into 6th. So I think you're assuming I'm holding full boost and torque through the 5th to 6th shift. But the thing is, I don't think Dyno plots always reflect the per gear differences. E.g. If my pulls were doe in 4th and 5th, the car is never shifted into 6th to begin with. So it's not always possible to tell what torque looks like in 6th. The plot measures wheel torque vs rpm not per gear torque strategy.

Also I know on customrom2 torque cna be managed by load rather than raw boost. So it's possible for the boost line to stay flat while actual torque delivered to the clutch is slightly reduced. So could just be a visual thing.

I'm not sure if any of that makes sense. I think I'll just go ahead and ask Sam...

I'm not assuming anything since, as you said, I can't tell if you have per gear boost/torque target by a single gear dyno chart. Which is why I asked.

If it makes it more clear, this is what I mean by per gear boost/torque target. This is MHD but with BM3 Rev2, it's pretty similar:

 

[TBK]

I'm not assuming anything since, as you said, I can't tell if you have per gear boost/torque target by a single gear dyno chart. Which is why I asked.

If it makes it more clear, this is what I mean by per gear boost/torque target. This is MHD but with BM3 Rev2, it's pretty similar:

Yeah thanks. That does make a lot of sense. I suppose I should know the exact per gear target rather than rely on the tuner's word

 

[TBK]

So we had the first time attack event of the season...National Circuit @ Dubai Autodrome. Love that layout, but oh man did i struggle. Placed 2nd in the mod class, with a 1:36.9 lap time, about 0.4 seconds off first place, but my optimal was almost 2.5 seconds quicker. That's....terrible from a consistency perspective. And even my optimal lap could've been quicker.

Ran into some really annoying problems. Kept getting power cuts through so many of the turns. Not a fuel starve thing as i was topped off, and it was happening on both left and right turns. Only way to mitigate that was to go up a gear when that hesitation started. I was so all over the place and concerned with temps (which were perfect, despite the 35 celcius / 95 fahrenheit weather) that i didn't really track boost. After the race ended, i noticed that was hitting 12psi....fml

To cap things off, i was also leaking methanol. Not the first time, and i think it's time to give up on the underhood plastic tank thing, and go with what i've used in the past: a trunk tank. Will also allow me to run a bigger tank (9.5 liters instead of 3 liters). The bigger tank is going to give me some me peace of mind, and not force me to have to run around trying to fill methanol every damn session....especially since we also need to fill both pump and ethanol as well to avoid starve issues. We did consider a SS tank (the shop is making one), and that might solve the leaking issue, but it's also going to be quite heavier (up front) and still only carry 3 liters. Might use it in the interim if it's done since i doubt i'll be able to source a trunk kit at short notice Next race,....different league....is this coming weekend.

It could've been a lot worse, but my mechanics at Element Performance (once again) saved my bacon by putting in a lot for extra work the night before.

I was running the low boost map @razorlab btw until i figure out the torque thing we discussed just to be on the safe side.

 

[razorlab]

Have a log of what you were experiencing?

 

[TBK]

Have a log of what you were experiencing?

Nope. I struggled with the format, which was shorter sessions with rotating groups. Next week's format is longer sessions with open pit lane rules.

So I was always in a rush. Measuring tire pressures, tire temps across the tires, hydrating, filling pump/meth/eth, airing up/down tires before going back out etc... didn't enjoy that part...and ended up forgetting to do some basic things, like turn on the damn insta360

 

[razorlab]

Nope. I struggled with the format, which was shorter sessions with rotating groups. Next week's format is longer sessions with open pit lane rules.

So I was always in a rush. Measuring tire pressures, tire temps across the tires, hydrating, filling pump/meth/eth, airing up/down tires before going back out etc... didn't enjoy that part...and ended up forgetting to do some basic things, like turn on the damn insta360

Why so much? You could probably do without half of that and still do well.

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