Anyone using JB4?

[dethred]

You can adjust boost pressure with JB4 across the powerband. You can easily add 100hp. Probably more. The engine might not survive, but you can definitely keep cranking the boost still she blows.

I see you're new to this. Can't control timing or fuel, so absolutely not. Also it will give you whatever boost the stock DME thinks is safe, so you can put 25psi across the Rev range and it will ***never ever*** give you that. We're talking locked cars with no BEF because what kind of idiot would use a JB4 with an unlocked ECU?

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[zrk]

I see you're new to this. Can't control timing or fuel, so absolutely not. Also it will give you whatever boost the stock DME thinks is safe, so you can put 25psi across the Rev range and it will ***never ever*** give you that. We're talking locked cars with no BEF because what kind of idiot would use a JB4 with an unlocked ECU?

Na - not new to this. I've been banging on cars for a while, not as long as many folks, somewhere around 2001 I started wrenching hard. You can 100% keep the wastegate closed until you hit the max amount of boost, starve the fuel system, and blow shit to pieces. You can definitely hit more than 100 additive hp, but it's not going to be for very long.

 

[dethred]

Na - not new to this. I've been banging on cars for a while, not as long as many folks, somewhere around 2001 I started wrenching hard. You can 100% keep the wastegate closed until you hit the max amount of boost, starve the fuel system, and blow shit to pieces. You can definitely hit more than 100 additive hp, but it's not going to be for very long.

Yeah definitely new to this, JB4 won't allow you to do any of that.

 

[zrk]

Yeah definitely new to this, JB4 won't allow you to do any of that.

You are aware of how simple the EPROMs of the JB4 unit themselves are, right? From what I can tell with the multimeter going into the oscilloscope, the JB4 unit does literally nothing but alter the voltages provided by the sensors. Based on some simple napkin math and an understanding of high school level EE, you're a single resistor from knocking the input voltages provided by the pressure sensor by an order of magnitude. Unless my oscilloscope is lying (hint: it's not).

It's also worth noting that the traffic over BTLE isn't actually encrypted as well, the PIN is sent in the BTLE handshake packet - I haven't actually used the app much, because it's so damn shitty, but it's dead simple to modify the values sent over the wire (as it were, I know it's BTLE). The JB4 is just a computer - it does what it's told.

 

[dethred]

You are aware of how simple the EPROMs of the JB4 unit themselves are, right? From what I can tell with the multimeter going into the oscilloscope, the JB4 unit does literally nothing but alter the voltages provided by the sensors. Based on some simple napkin math and an understanding of high school level EE, you're a single resistor from knocking the input voltages provided by the pressure sensor by an order of magnitude. Unless my oscilloscope is lying (hint: it's not).

It's also worth noting that the traffic over BTLE isn't actually encrypted as well, the PIN is sent in the BTLE handshake packet - I haven't actually used the app much, because it's so damn shitty, but it's dead simple to modify the values sent over the wire (as it were, I know it's BTLE). The JB4 is just a computer - it does what it's told.

LOL, the JB4 is programmed with safeties. Without a backend flash (which again is irrelevant here) the DME is using the stock safeties. You clearly haven't fucked with the JB4 enough. Go set absolute targets to 25psi throughout the Rev range and post a log. Jesus Christ help me, I'm arguing with another Dunning Kruger personification.

Hint: Even if you can trick the DME into requesting the full 25psi, it will adjust timing automatically. If you run IAT spoofing to advance timing, it will trigger a safety when you max the stock fuel trims. You are wrong, I suggest you do some more homework.

 

[zrk]

LOL, the JB4 is programmed with safeties

Right --- that was what I was alluding to when I mentioned how simple the EPROMs are. They are not hard to overwrite or clone and replace. The wastegate is controlled electronically, right? With a 0-5v input control on the servo. I have the oscilloscope plugged into a JB4 unit -- right now, with a 10ohm resistor on the EWG control wire. I don't really care what the DME does, it's all just analog circuits controlled converted to and from digital signals for the ECU to manage. At the end of the day - all of the signals to and from the ECU are analog signals. Analog signals can be manipulated - that's what the JB4 does - it manipulates analog signals before they get from the sensor to and from the ECU.

To your point, yes. Timing will adjust and not net you anything but trouble. 100%. That's another sensor you can hack up if you wanted. You shouldn't.

A few resistors can go a long way. I was looking at the scope when I thinking about the possibilities of building a JB4 like device from RPis, Arduinos, or ESP32s or something. I'm a hardware hacker by nature and work in the IoT field. Anything that is controlled by electricity can do anything you want it to do.

I never meant to imply that forcing the wastegate closed would result in a driveable car. I think there was a smirk emoji in there someone. Just that it's absolutely possible, to increase the resistance to the control wire on the EWG using a little more than an EPROM writer or some clever BTLE trickery to write to the EPROMs, skipping the app completely.

Electronics are incredibly simple things at their core. They're just a bunch of gates, logic, and state machines (depending). The JB4 is a simple device, it's easy to see how the inputs that are fed to the JB4 are modified. Automotive electronics are definitely not my strongest suit, I never mean to imply that. But hardware hacking in the general sense is.

Take that for what it's worth. It's really easy to make incredibly bad decisions when it comes both to programming shit, and for throwing resisters in wiring harnesses to make the scope go boop.

 

[max]

@zrk , @dethred

.....Really????? We are going to these extremes over the jb4???? Great points about the electronics/general programming parameters(quite entertaining) of the unit but I don't think Terry@bms was hoping to sell these things to Engineers/reverse engineers, etc.....

It does what they say it does (used on my Stinger for a while and I believe I got my money's worth) but any die-hard tuner is going to want to get into the ECU at some point. Just the nature of the business....until the ECU is cracked ( if ever), then the jb4 is good for basic turbo 'spoofing".....see what i did there????

 

[dethred]

@zrk , @dethred

.....Really????? We are going to these extremes over the jb4???? Great points about the electronics/general programming parameters(quite entertaining) of the unit but I don't think Terry@bms was hoping to sell these things to Engineers/reverse engineers, etc.....

It does what they say it does (used on my Stinger for a while and I believe I got my money's worth) but any die-hard tuner is going to want to get into the ECU at some point. Just the nature of the business....until the ECU is cracked ( if ever), then the jb4 is good for basic turbo 'spoofing".....see what i did there????

I believe at least the stinger has support to adjust fuel trims. The B58 JB4 doesn't have that. It literally can spoof IATs and adjust the DME's reading of boost, and that's about it.

As for @zrk, you just wrote a bunch of nonsense. I will send you $500 if you can get a JB4 to safely make power around 100whp above stock on a locked ECU car that you said was "easy" . That's about 485whp, depending on the stock Dyno reading.

Since clearly only one of us has tried to push the damn thing to it's max potential, I'll give you a hint at what happens when you try to do things that you've suggested, at anything above 23psi in the top of the power band it makes less power as the boost increases. It can tell the DME to make as much boost as you want it to make, as you said, but that's just stupid and the DME will simply request less boost. Timing will be pulled and you'll hit the limits on fuel, and you'll make the same paltry 450whp max on the 6 port head if you're lucky. Or you'll get a lean code safety and go into valet mode. Go ahead and throw meth and e30-e50 at it, you'll get the same results as I did. Go ahead and pump up the boost even more and it'll start overboosting and hit 30+ psi and trigger a boost spike safety. If you set absolute boost to 25psi across the board, it absolutely will never hold 25psi because the locked DME is not going to let you do it.

At this point I'm yet again having to enter a thread about the JB4 to prevent misconceptions from costing others who use the search function. Don't listen to the guy talking about how simple eprom chips are, simply knowing how simple they are and understanding that they can be flashed is about as irrelevant as his posts. These things have been used for decades in ECUs, that doesn't change a fucking thing about the fact that the factory DME has limits and safeties that can't be changed or spoofed by the JB4.

If you're going to try and reprogram the chips, have fun getting absolutely nowhere. I'm embarrassed for the way you're trying to frame this, especially without any actual relevant info. You started with a premise that the JB4 can "make 100whp easily and probably more" and now you're trying to change the discussion to modifying the hardware and software of the JB4... At which point let's just talk about how we can make our cars fly.


Like I said, set the absolute target to 25+ psi through the entire Rev range and post a log here. I await the log with amusement.

 

[zrk]

you just wrote a bunch of nonsense

I.. didn't, would you like to see my resume or photos of my electronics lab? Probably more impressive is our electronics lab at the office.

safely make power

There's no possible way to do this safely - as I said in my first post, "it won't be for very long" where I meant about the duration of your dyno pull and "shit blows up" which I said in my second post.

I was definitely being tongue in cheek. No one should ever attempt anything I was saying, being in that it was tongue in cheek.

At which point let's just talk about how we can make our cars fly.

Literally, yes. That's exactly my point.

 

[dethred]

I.. didn't, would you like to see my resume or photos of my electronics lab? Probably more impressive is our electronics lab at the office.



There's no possible way to do this safely - as I said in my first post, "it won't be for very long" where I meant about the duration of your dyno pull and "shit blows up" which I said in my second post.

I was definitely being tongue in cheek. No one should ever attempt anything I was saying, being in that it was tongue in cheek.



Literally, yes. That's exactly my point.

Don't care about where you work, only the fact that you think JB4 can do more than it actually can, and you're posting irrelevant technical information in an attempt to be seen as knowledgeable. I see you're not addressing the part where you said it can easily make 100whp or more, so we can just assume that was tongue in cheek too.

 

[OneTimeAccount]

I installed it yesterday. Thought I updated firmware but actually didn't so it was using the default or whatever it comes with when first connecting it. Noticed a whistling/whining when I had my hood up, not sure if it was just a cold start loop thing but just never noticed it before. Did some pulls on map 1, 2, and 3. Map 3 was trashy feeling. Stopped that, went to map 2. Still not that fast, stock was quicker. Map 1 felt the cleanest. Went back to map 2 and it felt sluggish. Did I ruin anything by not updating the firmware to the latest one for my engine?

I update the firmware last night and it run smoother. Haven't timed anything yet so unsure if its actually quicker than stock. Using 93 pump fuel.

 

[Sigg]

Does anyone know roughly how much HP is gained at each different map setting? I get that it depends on individual mods done to your car but maybe there is a baseline? Burger advertises 100hp gain with the JB4 but is that at Map1 or MapX??

Depends If you're driving a 20 or 21, also depends what fuel you are using. Stock, map 1 won't be more than 30hp/tq on on 91 I believe. There

I installed it yesterday. Thought I updated firmware but actually didn't so it was using the default or whatever it comes with when first connecting it. Noticed a whistling/whining when I had my hood up, not sure if it was just a cold start loop thing but just never noticed it before. Did some pulls on map 1, 2, and 3. Map 3 was trashy feeling. Stopped that, went to map 2. Still not that fast, stock was quicker. Map 1 felt the cleanest. Went back to map 2 and it felt sluggish. Did I ruin anything by not updating the firmware to the latest one for my engine?

I update the firmware last night and it run smoother. Haven't timed anything yet so unsure if its actually quicker than stock. Using 93 pump fuel.

The JB4 needs a couple pulls to adjust. Are you fully stock? Do a couple wot pulls from 2k to redline in the same map. Switching maps all the time usually doesn't work great for me. Check your logs and consider adding a couple gallons of ethanol. I'm running map 6 23 psi and getting decent results. Best we got till ecu unlock comes. I would email Terry or post logs n54tech. They reply pretty fast especially via email.

 

[OneTimeAccount]

Depends If you're driving a 20 or 21, also depends what fuel you are using. Stock, map 1 won't be more than 30hp/tq on on 91 I believe. There
The JB4 needs a couple pulls to adjust. Are you fully stock? Do a couple wot pulls from 2k to redline in the same map. Switching maps all the time usually doesn't work great for me. Check your logs and consider adding a couple gallons of ethanol. I'm running map 6 23 psi and getting decent results. Best we got till ecu unlock comes. I would email Terry or post logs n54tech. They reply pretty fast especially via email.

Yes, fully stock. I'll do some runs like you said along with some logging and see if I can find some e85 around here to add. What email do you use for them?

 

[Sigg]

Yes, fully stock. I'll do some runs like you said along with some logging and see if I can find some e85 around here to add. What email do you use for them?

[email protected]
I started on map 1 and sent logs over each time increasing map and reviewing until setting parameters for map 6. 93 tends to be a little low on octane where I'm at, ethanol is really the king tbh.

 

[superd6199]

I believe at least the stinger has support to adjust fuel trims. The B58 JB4 doesn't have that. It literally can spoof IATs and adjust the DME's reading of boost, and that's about it.

As for @zrk, you just wrote a bunch of nonsense. I will send you $500 if you can get a JB4 to safely make power around 100whp above stock on a locked ECU car that you said was "easy" . That's about 485whp, depending on the stock Dyno reading.

Since clearly only one of us has tried to push the damn thing to it's max potential, I'll give you a hint at what happens when you try to do things that you've suggested, at anything above 23psi in the top of the power band it makes less power as the boost increases. It can tell the DME to make as much boost as you want it to make, as you said, but that's just stupid and the DME will simply request less boost. Timing will be pulled and you'll hit the limits on fuel, and you'll make the same paltry 450whp max on the 6 port head if you're lucky. Or you'll get a lean code safety and go into valet mode. Go ahead and throw meth and e30-e50 at it, you'll get the same results as I did. Go ahead and pump up the boost even more and it'll start overboosting and hit 30+ psi and trigger a boost spike safety. If you set absolute boost to 25psi across the board, it absolutely will never hold 25psi because the locked DME is not going to let you do it.

At this point I'm yet again having to enter a thread about the JB4 to prevent misconceptions from costing others who use the search function. Don't listen to the guy talking about how simple eprom chips are, simply knowing how simple they are and understanding that they can be flashed is about as irrelevant as his posts. These things have been used for decades in ECUs, that doesn't change a fucking thing about the fact that the factory DME has limits and safeties that can't be changed or spoofed by the JB4.

If you're going to try and reprogram the chips, have fun getting absolutely nowhere. I'm embarrassed for the way you're trying to frame this, especially without any actual relevant info. You started with a premise that the JB4 can "make 100whp easily and probably more" and now you're trying to change the discussion to modifying the hardware and software of the JB4... At which point let's just talk about how we can make our cars fly.


Like I said, set the absolute target to 25+ psi through the entire Rev range and post a log here. I await the log with amusement.

Well stated and very true with the JB4 gains! Max I was able to achieve was 436whp and 498 tq.

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