Audio upgrade options

[tadda]

Take a look at this thread on the F30.
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1329316

It isn’t apples to apples, but a lot of what is going on processing wise with that HK system applies to the Supra from a philosophy standpoint. Given that you seem to be the most gung-ho at staying closer to stock, I figured it would help you.

- Subsonic filter on sub-woofer output
- Low pass on subwoofers around 100Hz but due to the boosted HK house curve, it is likely outputting meaningful mid bass at 200Hz
- the 4” are high passed at somewhere around 150Hz as best I can tell from electrical spectrum.
- DSP makes this have some guesswork
- the tweeters have a 6db high pass at 4.7 microF (8khz?). So the mid bass has a giant sweep to cover due to the low slope crossover on the tweeter.
- Variable DSP loudness contours over the volume range.
- I’m guessing the EQ settings recommended will not be applicable to us.

Good read and re-enforces many of the areas relative to the Supras' HK sound system which BMW uses as well....And nice to see posts there by what I assume are experienced audio engineers and enthusiasts...

Yeah, the Electrical Engineer and audio enthusiast in me loves a challenge and early on I discovered a few issues with our audio system that could be easily improved upon...The basic components of our Supras' sound system are actually very good...It's the application and some design issues that just require further attention for a relatively low cost...

Clearly there are differences in the environments and speaker placements between the BMW referenced in that thread and our Supra which are reflected in their EQ settings...For example I saw most EQ setting had 1khz really raised up whereas I found in our Supra that 1khz really needed to be attenuated which also takes into account environment and personal preferences of coarse...

A big take away, which I also agree with, is how selecting "surround" enhancement added to the phase distortion which resulted in reduced sound clarity...This is one of the first things I turned off and the system clarity was noticeably improved...

I had a chuckle when an "old time" audio guy mentioned the loudness button that was prevalent on most audio systems in the old days...Now they incorporate that DSP feature into the amplifier where is "loudness" curve / contour is volume dependant...Most AMPs tend to flatten their loudness curves as volume is increased and the take away here is to always adjust EQ at preferred listening volume...for me that's around 60~65%...

I think my next project will be focusing on filters and crossovers applied to the door speakers (mids and tweeters)...

Good stuff and thanks for posting!

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[JasonO]

I totally understand lol! Speaking of DSP and crossovers the shops used this amplifier by JL Audio
VX1000/5i
5 Ch. Class D System Amplifier with Integrated DSP, 1000 W. It was installed behind the passenger seat.

I recall from your other thread. Please don’t take my approach as saying yours was useless, inferior, etc. I wanted to keep full integration, and at the time, harnesses for that also required some reprogramming of the head unit by BMW from what I’ve read, and they were the cost of some installs. I highly doubted Toyota could do it, so I just had my subs replaced and used the same location you are using for my XD amp.

The VX with C5s should be an easy install for shops to DSP as JL sponsored a Supra with that setup on a VX amp. The tuning file is available on their dealer network from what my installer said. That should mean the file has been poured over by multiple eyes to make up for the 4”s normal design range along with placement deficiencies in the stock system. So I’m sure your system sounds great, just if I have to go that way, the next steps I’m taking will need to be anyhow.

 

[JasonO]

Good read and re-enforces many of the areas relative to the Supras' HK sound system which BMW uses as well....And nice to see posts there by what I assume are experienced audio engineers and enthusiasts...

Yeah, the Electrical Engineer and audio enthusiast in me loves a challenge and early on I discovered a few issues with our audio system that could be easily improved upon...The basic components of our Supras' sound system are actually very good...It's the application and some design issues that just require further attention for a relatively low cost...

Clearly there are differences in the environments and speaker placements between the BMW referenced in that thread and our Supra which are reflected in their EQ settings...For example I saw most EQ setting had 1khz really raised up whereas I found in our Supra that 1khz really needed to be attenuated which also takes into account environment and personal preferences of coarse...

A big take away, which I also agree with, is how selecting "surround" enhancement added to the phase distortion which resulted in reduced sound clarity...This is one of the first things I turned off and the system clarity was noticeably improved...

I had a chuckle when an "old time" audio guy mentioned the loudness button that was prevalent on most audio systems in the old days...Now they incorporate that DSP feature into the amplifier where is "loudness" curve / contour is volume dependant...Most AMPs tend to flatten their loudness curves as volume is increased and the take away here is to always adjust EQ at preferred listening volume...for me that's around 60~65%...

I think my next project will be focusing on filters and crossovers applied to the door speakers (mids and tweeters)...

Good stuff and thanks for posting!

Billfitz is Bill Fitzmaurice. When I ran down the rabbit hole I wound up on another forum full of similar level guys bitching about everything wrong with even good speakers because of reasons. Lots of knowledge there, just lots of griping too.

The amp issue is what gets me. On the interstate I’m usually around 2/3rds volume and changing bass voicing is easy enough as I have a knob installed to control the amp, but it still aggravates me.

We seem to be going in a similar direction so here is my plan:

Disable center channel speakers and install some Audiofrog GS40c crossovers for the doors.

Use quality CLD on doors, some cabin, and all rear metal surfaces. 33-50% coverage except for doors where it will be closer to 100%. One layer of SM600L thinsulate between all outer skin (sans floors) and cabin (75 ft^2), maybe some in dash. Decouple as needed with 5mm neoprene and butyl rope. Add MLV (16 ft^2) with decoupler on floor of trunk as thinsulate won’t work there.

I’m leaving the roof and drivers cabin floor mostly alone as if what I do fixes the problem it saves a huge headache of ripping the entire cab apart.

 

[tadda]

Billfitz is Bill Fitzmaurice. When I ran down the rabbit hole I wound up on another forum full of similar level guys bitching about everything wrong with even good speakers because of reasons. Lots of knowledge there, just lots of griping too.

The amp issue is what gets me. On the interstate I’m usually around 2/3rds volume and changing bass voicing is easy enough as I have a knob installed to control the amp, but it still aggravates me.

We seem to be going in a similar direction so here is my plan:

Disable center channel speakers and install some Audiofrog GS40c crossovers for the doors.

Use quality CLD on doors, some cabin, and all rear metal surfaces. 33-50% coverage except for doors where it will be closer to 100%. One layer of SM600L thinsulate between all outer skin (sans floors) and cabin (75 ft^2), maybe some in dash. Decouple as needed with 5mm neoprene and butyl rope. Add MLV (16 ft^2) with decoupler on floor of trunk as thinsulate won’t work there.

I’m leaving the roof and drivers cabin floor mostly alone as if what I do fixes the problem it saves a huge headache of ripping the entire cab apart.

Audiofrog GS410C Crossover

Any ideas as to where would you mount the crossover boxes? They are relatively large...

Dimensions:

• Width: 3.994"
• Height: 1.784"
• Depth: 5.880"

By any chance do you have the pinout IDs for the OE Amp?

 

[JasonO]

Audiofrog GS410C Crossover

Any ideas as to where would you mount the crossover boxes? They are relatively large...

Dimensions:

• Width: 3.994"
• Height: 1.784"
• Depth: 5.880"

By any chance do you have the pinout IDs for the OE Amp?

If I cannot find a good place under the dash on each side that isn’t visible, I will mount behind the driver’s seat with the rear of my equipment. I’d prefer under dash as the runs will be shorter to the speakers. I’m not a fan of mounting them in the door as they would need to go in the inner baffle that isn’t waterproof.

You could use some another crossover. I only went with Audiofrog as I was able to get an open box set for a little more than one JL c3 crossover. The fact that their gear is top notch only sealed the deal for me.

You may be able to find a deal on hertz/Audison crossovers on eBay. They mostly are 6db/12db LP/HP, but they have some 12/12s. JL c3 crossovers would work as well, but they aren’t cheap for what you are getting. Most other crossovers on eBay are overpriced, unpublished data, or sketchy companies.

I do not have the amp pin out.

EDIT: I think they can fit on the cabin side of the membrane. there appears to be space under the armrest area. I won’t know for sure until I pull everything off. I tried watching TJHunts Bavsound video, but it was done terribly so I don’t know for sure.

 

[JasonO]

For those of you who want your cake and will pay to eat it to, you can install a mObridge converter. This will replace the HK amp on the MOST bus, allow for custom DSP (EQ, pass filters, and time delay) to be outputted on ten channels of RCAs.

All head unit and factory control features will work. Steering volume, bass, treble, and the ten channel eq will be overlaid over the new DSP settings that are user programmable. A delayed remote out is also supplied. You will not need a separate volume control like you do when running a traditional DSP/amp combo.

https://mobridge.us/product/da-g2-pro-most25/

If anyone is ready to drop serious money on an install that uses an aftermarket DSP as the speakers are being replaced, this would be a very attractive option. For several hundred more, you keep all integration, volume and tone controls while getting a full function DSP with ten channels of outputs. The Supra is compatible to some versions.

This is more than I want, but it seems no one knows the option is there and most installers are not aware of it.

 

[MaherSupra]

For those of you who want your cake and will pay to eat it to, you can install a mObridge converter. This will replace the HK amp on the MOST bus, allow for custom DSP (EQ, pass filters, and time delay) to be outputted on ten channels of RCAs.

All head unit and factory control features will work. Steering volume, bass, treble, and the ten channel eq will be overlaid over the new DSP settings that are user programmable. A delayed remote out is also supplied. You will not need a separate volume control like you do when running a traditional DSP/amp combo.

https://mobridge.us/product/da-g2-pro-most25/

If anyone is ready to drop serious money on an install that uses an aftermarket DSP as the speakers are being replaced, this would be a very attractive option. For several hundred more, you keep all integration, volume and tone controls while getting a full function DSP with ten channels of outputs. The Supra is compatible to some versions.

This is more than I want, but it seems no one knows the option is there and most installers are not aware of it.[/QUOTE

How much is it?! The JL Audio amplifier/DSP in my car has it all and it’s sound great.

 

[JasonO]

$600 to 900 depending on model.

 

[JasonO]

Audiofrog GS410C Crossover

Any ideas as to where would you mount the crossover boxes? They are relatively large...

Dimensions:

• Width: 3.994"
• Height: 1.784"
• Depth: 5.880"

By any chance do you have the pinout IDs for the OE Amp?

These will not fit in the dry side of the door but any crossover has to go in the door. I am taking mine apart to fit. The flex conduit ends in a pinned connector, so additional wires cannot properly be ran into the door without a bunch of hoops to jump through or getting really sketchy.

If you want to minimize cutting harnesses, you will need a pair of male and two pairs of female BMW speaker harness connectors. Soldering can get around some of it, but likely not all. You can use BMW Y connectors are on eBay for cheap that can be chopped up for $5 each, but they come from China, so planning ahead will be necessary. With that said, for ten bucks, one will have all the connectors required to leave factory wiring intact.

 

[tadda]

Here is latest update I received from OEMAudio+ which doesn't sound as if they are going to have anything released soon...

"We are literally back to active R&D with the Supra (the CA lock-down slowed thing down unfortunately). I anticipate us having an update that shapes expectations by the end of the month."

Here is latest update regarding Bavsound's Revenant amplifier ...

"We are currently in development of a replacement amp for the Harmon Kardon/ Premium Top HiFi audio systems. It is our Top priority.

Sorry we do not have a definite release date due to the uncertainty of development and production times during and after COVID-19.

Here is an update from Audiotec Fischer regarding DSP amp upgrade...

"I believe that the system in your Supra will be based on a MOST fiber optic system. We have an interface called the Helix SDMI25 that will convert the MOST signal into a TOSLINK signal that the aftermarket industry uses. From there the Match UP7BMW is a great fit for the vehicle power wise as the system is designed as an upgrade for the more standard BMW 676 HiFi audio systems. To connect them all together we offer a specialty Plug and Play harness that we created here in the US for the Harman Kardon audio packages and our UP7BMW amplifier DSP. With just a bit of installation time and some tuning you can have a great little system and a huge improvement in sound."

 

[METAL]

Here is latest update I received from OEMAudio+ which doesn't sound as if they are going to have anything released soon...


Here is latest update regarding Bavsound's Revenant amplifier ...


Here is an update from Audiotec Fischer regarding DSP amp upgrade...

Based off that info. I feel your subwoofer port modification DIY and the Revenant amp will be the best P&P/economical setup.

 

[tadda]

Been doing some research lately regarding direct replacement woofer options and not surprising I found quite a bit of info on the BMW sites...Our OE woofers in the Supra have the same woofer frame dimensions as those used in BMW underseat subs...

One item that caught my interest is where someone did a comparative study of 5 underseat woofer options available...I was able to contact the author and get the names of the 5 woofer brands in the blind performance test...

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26168476&postcount=338

Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth...However, it also has by far the lowest power rating of the group...

Now the worse performer of the group (from a subwoofer perspective) was the Bavsound Ghost sub where the bass response curve was not nearly as broad or flat as the others and peaked around 80hz...It's low end response also rolls off much sharper than the others...This may explain why many folks that install the Bavsound Ghost sub often comment that the while they sound "clearer' and "punchier" they also loose alot of low end bass compared to the OE sub ...That said, I think Bavsound Ghost sub would serve better use as a "mid-bass" option and would definitely need to be supported with installation of an external sub...

Seems as if many on the BMW site like the Earthquake SWS sub although I've seen some reviews regarding long term durability and quality issues...The Earthquakes reportedly also require more power to perform well...

 

[JasonO]

Been doing some research lately regarding direct replacement woofer options and not surprising I found quite a bit of info on the BMW sites...Our OE woofers in the Supra have the same woofer frame dimensions as those used in BMW underseat subs...

One item that caught my interest is where someone did a comparative study of 5 underseat woofer options available...I was able to contact the author and get the names of the 5 woofer brands in the blind performance test...

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26168476&postcount=338

Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the best sensitivity and widest bandwidth...However, it also had the lowest power rating of the group...

Now the worse performer of the group (from a subwoofer perspective) was the Bavsound Ghost sub where the bass response curve is really not that flat and somewhat "peaky" at ~80hz...It's low end response also rolls off much sharper than the others...This may explain why many folks that install the Bavsound Ghost sub complain that the while they are "clearer' and "punchier" they also loose alot of low end response compared to the OE sub...That said, I think Bavsound Ghost sub would serve better use as a "mid-bass" option and would definitely need to be supported with installation of an external sub......

Seems as if many on the BMW site like the Earthquake SWS sub although I've seen some reviews regarding long term durability and quality issues...

The driver performance will be enclosure specific. You have ported your enclosure and enclosure dimensions could vary wildly between the two cars. This could be a terrible graph to follow blindly on anything other than sensitivity from my limited understanding.

 

[tadda]

The driver performance will be enclosure specific. You have ported your enclosure and enclosure dimensions could vary wildly between the two cars. This could be a terrible graph to follow blindly on anything other than sensitivity from my limited understanding.

oh I agree that is another aspect to consider...I'm just using this as a point of reference and certainly wouldn't follow blindly without taking other variables into consideration...That said, while the BMW underseat sub dimensions differ from ours, they are ported as well...I did find it interesting and useful to see the comparisons between the 5 speaker types all using the same enclosures none-the-less...

I found the real take away here was with the Bavsound curve, which sort of supports what others have experienced and commented about after installing the Bavsound Ghost subs in the Supra having a noticeably reduced lower bass response but a punchier midbass...I am curious as to how they may sound with an unobstructed ported system as I've done with mine...

For others that may not know, the Supras OE sub enclosure is also ported to begin with...What I simply did was remove the obstruction in front of the OE ports by adding a port to the narrow rear panel to clear that path so to speak...And yes, it did somewhat change the "relative" enclosure volume...The result was lowering the bass response with less distortion...It also resolved the vibration and rattling issue...

I've actually been researching woofer upgrades because I eventually plan on replacing / upgrading the OE amp once a viable option is made available and I'm not that confident the OE HK woofers would be handle any additional power without distortion or damaging them..As it stands now, even with the subwoofer improvements made increasing volume past 50~60% begins to distort bass response...Some of this distortion may be amp related and some directly related to the OE woofer itself..

 

[JasonO]

oh I agree that is another aspect to consider...I'm just using this as a point of reference and certainly wouldn't follow blindly without taking other variables into consideration...That said, while the BMW underseat sub dimensions differ from ours, they are ported as well...I did find it interesting and useful to see the comparisons between the 5 speaker types all using the same enclosures none-the-less...

I found the real take away here was with the Bavsound curve, which sort of supports what others have experienced and commented about after installing the Bavsound Ghost subs in the Supra having a noticeably reduced lower bass response but a punchier midbass...I am curious as to how they may sound with an unobstructed ported system as I've done with mine...

For others that may not know, the Supras OE sub enclosure is also ported to begin with...What I simply did was remove the obstruction in front of the OE ports by adding a port to the narrow rear panel to clear that path so to speak...And yes, it did somewhat change the "relative" enclosure volume...The result was lowering the bass response with less distortion...It also resolved the vibration and rattling issue...

I've actually been researching woofer upgrades because I eventually plan on replacing / upgrading the OE amp once a viable option is made available and I'm not that confident the OE HK woofers would be handle any additional power without distortion or damaging them..As it stands now, even with the subwoofer improvements made increasing volume past 50~60% begins to distort bass response...

I was fairly certain you are aware. To get around bass drop off, you will need a new amp and or DSP. The bass quits increasing around 60-70% if I had to guess.

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