Blown turbo at track - need help cooling it down

[nebulous13]

Was at NJMP Lightning over the weekend. During final session, went to accelerate out of turn 4 and got nothing from the engine. Thought I was fuel starved or something. No boom or shudder. Just started getting zero boost.

Took to shop today and they saw that the charge pipe coupler had come loose. Easy fix! Then they discovered that my exhaust-side turbine had disintegrated and was sitting inside my downpipe. They had a spare OEM turbo from someone that had upgraded and are installing that. They said they hadn't seen that before and thought it was likely a warranty-able defect (had I not been tuned at at a track).

Should I be looking to add better cooling or just do a better job of cooldown between session? My car:
- Catted AA downpipe
- Ecutek 93 pump tune (420whp, 519tq)

Also, what's a good method/app to monitor the various temps while I'm driving?

I'm torn because considering trading for the manual in the next year or so and don't want to dump too much into mods. I see folks are doing the EOS intake manifold, but that seems to be for 600HP+ cars.

Thoughts?

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[zrk]

I see folks are doing the EOS intake manifold

Stock cars will hugely benefit from the intake manifold.

 

[kurumi]

Stock cars will hugely benefit from the intake manifold.

^ This.

All cars will benefit from an upgraded manifold. Heatsoak is a real thing even if you have a ton of airflow going to the engine (from driving at speed).

It won't benefit much if it's a standard road car however.

 

[Sub-MkV]

Wouldn't the Verus vent or a vented hood have more of a greater affect than the upgraded manifold? On my boosted 300whp 86 I used to have with a Varis vented hood I went on a mountain run with stock 86's(170whp) and when we got to the top they were all amazed that my engine bay temps were dramatically lower compared to their stock engine/stock hood cars despite the aftermarket turbokit on my car.

 

[nebulous13]

It won't benefit much if it's a standard road car however.

Can you explain this part? Are you just saying that the upgrade is only useful if the car is tracked?

New intercooler manifold is $4k plus labor. Does that need to be step 1 for a 93 pump car? I can do the CSF heat exchanger + auxiliaries for a lot less than that.

If my issue is heat soak, I'm wondering why my turbo exploded when most others just get limp mode. Definitely not calling you wrong. I just don't know anything about engines.

I've also read that going flex fuel would lower temps. Any truth to that?

 

[Guff]

Agreed on the intake manifold! IATs in this car go sky high after just a couple sessions on a 85+F day. But it is very expensive to replace though!

Question is, how did EGTs get hot enough to destroy your turbo hot side (assuming it wasn't a manufacturing defect). I wonder if the catted DP is contributing to that? But a lot of people are running high flow cats, so maybe a moot point! Might be worth monitoring EGT temps with a exhaust probe in the downpipe if you think its an issue.

 

[digicidal]

Can you explain this part? Are you just saying that the upgrade is only useful if the car is tracked?

I guess it would depend greatly on how you drive in "standard road car" mode. If you cruise the freeway in 3rd gear regularly - then you'd definitely see some benefits.

 

[PaulFRDE]

Sorry guys but I don't get the link between high intake temps and blown turbo, I also believe the car should have just went into limp mode
Maybe oil temperature/pressure is a more logical culprit here?

I understand you don't have a good tool to monitor your temps, I personally use a cheap OBD2 dongle from amazon with the smartphone app "Torque", it needs a bit of time to set up, but I can monitor things like coolant temp, Intake temp, Oil temp, Fuel percentage (in percent, better than those lines in the display) and Intake pressure on the track.

 

[718_2T]

Hey I'm you from like 2020. My stock turbo did the same exact thing on track and I was running an afe high flow DP. Outside Temps were 100+ Degrees, 3rd Session of the day on a Back Straight full throttle and tuned. Car just lost power and boost no check engine lights at all.

Replaced with new stock turbo and ran Titan Catless DP, no issues since.

 

[geert.bieseman]

As @PaulFRDE mentioned, IAT has nothing to do with blowing up your turbo.
I have never encounterd a blown up turbo on the track.

The route I would verify as well, is to see if the cooling of the turbo perhaps failed.

• Maybe that problem is still present

The turbo is cooled via water and that water is cooled through an air-to-water radiator.

• You see the waterhose connected on your turbo's center housing (if not mistaken)

As you may be aware, we have two small radiators sitting behind our front bumper. The one on the driver side (so left side when sitting in the car, right side when standing in front of the car), is the one serving as the air-to-water cooler, specifically for the turbo:

(the above picture shows the CSF upgraded radiator - installed last weekend on my car)


There is a small electric waterpump present attached on the top-front of our engines which makes the coolant flow between the turbo and that radiator. For your information, it is this one:

If your turbo is not cooled properly, I don't know if the ECU has some sort of protection (the turbine will still flow due to the exhaust gasses). Don't know if permanently opening the wastegate is a solution/countermeasure.

Again, maybe good to check if the cooling of the turbo is still functioning properly?

• Or it was unable to provide the necessary cooling?

As I said, me personally did not encounter yet issues with a blown up turbo on the track

 

[sams2k]

As @PaulFRDE mentioned, IAT has nothing to do with blowing up your turbo.
I have never encounterd a blown up turbo on the track.

The route I would verify as well, is to see if the cooling of the turbo perhaps failed.

• Maybe that problem is still present

The turbo is cooled via water and that water is cooled through an air-to-water radiator.

• You see the waterhose connected on your turbo's center housing (if not mistaken)

As you may be aware, we have two small radiators sitting behind our front bumper. The one on the driver side (so left side when sitting in the car, right side when standing in front of the car), is the one serving as the air-to-water cooler, specifically for the turbo:

(the above picture shows the CSF upgraded radiator - installed last weekend on my car)


There is a small electric waterpump present attached on the top-front of our engines which makes the coolant flow between the turbo and that radiator. For your information, it is this one:

If your turbo is not cooled properly, I don't know if the ECU has some sort of protection (the turbine will still flow due to the exhaust gasses). Don't know if permanently opening the wastegate is a solution/countermeasure.

Again, maybe good to check if the cooling of the turbo is still functioning properly?

• Or it was unable to provide the necessary cooling?

As I said, me personally did not encounter yet issues with a blown up turbo on the track

thats a great explnation
what the radiator on the other side do?

 

[Rocksandblues]

Couple things as a dedicated track rat (3 times a month)

I am sorry OP you had the failure. Glad you were able to get back on the road/track.

Hood vents and shields help on the track but only give you another lap or so before heat soak. They would absolutely help on a spirited mountain run like someone said. But a rally/spirited run does not come close to the brutal heat of a 20 min session on a hot track fwiw

I NEED the intercooler for sure. On hot days I heat soak pretty quicky. A friend that has one does not heat soak like i do. So far I am holding off spending the money as a decide to stick with this platform or move.

I have NOT heard of a Turbo letting go on the track yet- personally and we beat the HELL out of these things.

I agree with Geert that IATs have zero to do with the turbo health. Heat yes- i too think you should double check the cooling lines to the turbo.

 

[zrk]

thats a great explnation
what the radiator on the other side do?

The two side aux radiators run in line with the main heat exchanger. Drag guys just remove them for weight as they're basically useless for what we do.

Wouldn't the Verus vent or a vented hood have more of a greater affect than the upgraded manifold?

Both are good options, but no. They cool in different ways. The EOS Manifold will prevent headsoak due to the larger core, and the Verus louver will improve airflow. Do them both.

Can you explain this part? Are you just saying that the upgrade is only useful if the car is tracked?

Does that need to be step 1 for a 93 pump car? I can do the CSF heat exchanger + auxiliaries for a lot less than that.

Not sure what this guy is on about. It's highly beneficial to any B58.

No, it doesn't need to be step one, but bang for buck wise, I'd advise it. Labor is easy if you're a mechanical person. I have several of these on and off in a couple of hours each.

I have yet to see data that shows the CSF upgraded exchanger and aux's improve anything.

is the one serving as the air-to-water cooler, specifically for the turbo:

This is objectively not true. Again, most drag guys delete these aux radiators for weight. They simply run in-line with the rest of the cooling system.

-----
I believe your mechanic is correct. This sounds like a manufacturing defect and nothing something you can really prevent.

 

[geert.bieseman]

thats a great explnation
what the radiator on the other side do?

Thanks.

Last weekend, by removing the front bumper and all radiators, we figured everything out:

So I am going to list it up here, which may provide other people as well with useful information.


In our front bumper, we have '3 main hole section' when standing in front of the car.

• Left
• Center
• Right

Below a picture of the bumper, when its detached, where you can clearly see these sections:

When looking at it from the front of the car (sorry, picture is a little bit dark):

The left and right main sections, are actually divided in lets say '3 sub-sections':

• The outer section, is used for airflow towards the air-to-water radiator
• The center section, is used for airflow towards the brake rotors
• The inner section, is used for airflow towards the components that sit behind the main center section

You can see it clearly in this picture:

When looking from it on the other side, you notice the small radiator and the part that lets the air flow to the brake rotor:

Now back to our main section again... in the main center section, we have 3 coolers present. The are in the following order when looking at them from the front:

• First, we have the transmission cooler
• Second, we have the heat exchanger
• Third, we have our engine main radiator
• And behind the engine main radiator, sits our engine fan

On the pictures below, you see in black... the CSF transmission cooler and behind it the CSF heat exchanger:

When looking from the engine bay's top perspective (standard oem stuff), you notice the heat exchanger, the engine radiator and the engine cooling fan:

Ok, so now that we know how our front bumper is dividing the airflow towards the several (sub)-sections, we can list up what each component is doing


Starting with the main center section, we have the following:

• The transmission cooler, is off course cooling our automatic transmission
• The main engine radiator, is there cool the water which flows through our engine (keeping the engine itself cool)
• The heat exchanger has actually two purposes:
  • Its main purpose is to cool the water coming from our intake manifold (it has the integrated chargeair-to-water cooled intercooler)
  • Its side purpose is to also keep the water cool, used in our AC (AirConditioning) unit. Yes that's right, the heat exchanger also makes sure... that we have cold air in our car

On our right section (when standing in front of the car), we have the following:

• The small radiator, which cools the water towards our turbo

And finally on the left section (when standing in front of the car), we have the following:

• The small radiator, which serves as the auxiliary engine radiator. Yes it assists the main engine raditor, to cool the water which flows through our engine

Just be to clear, the main engine radiator and both small radiators, are making use of the same water circuit. On the picture of the engine bay, you see:

• on the left... that the small radiator connects directly in the main engine radiators circuit
• on the right... the hose going towards the radiator on the right
• in the center we have a T-section. This is because both of them are using the same circuit. But the left hose of the T-section, is going to an electric water pump (for our turbo). The right goes to the small radiator on the right. The top connects to the main circuit.

The reason why I refer to it as the radiator for the turbo, is because the water will flow mostly from the radiator on the driver side (least resistance path), driving by the electric water pump.


We have two water circuits on our Supra (so we also have two expansions)

• The small circuit is used for the water of the heat exchanger
• The big circuit is used for the water for all the other radiators

On the picture below, the top one is the filler for the smaller circuit, the bottom one is the filler for the big circuit:

As extra information:

• The big filler has a sensor inside, to check for 'low coolant level'. To prevent that the engine would not cool in case of low coolant
• The small filler does not have a sensor. The ECU just relies on the IAT temperatures and adjust timings (when you have low coolant in that circuit, there will be no alert triggered on the screen in your car)

To keep the water flowing, we have 3 water pumps on our Supra:

• A mechanical one, which flows the water for cooling the engine
• An electric water pump, which flows the water for our turbo (mounted on the top-front of our engine)
• An electric water pump, which flows the water between our intake manifold and the heat exchanger. Also referred to as the EWP CharegeAir in the logs

For reference, the ChargeAir Electric WaterPump looks like this (I upgraded mine for a higher flowing one, for testing purposes):

Hope it clarifies a little bit our entire cooling system on the Supra, as it did for me


----------------------------------------------------

*added this section later*

Because I received so much positive feedback on this cooling stuff, I have added this section... on how our IAT (Intake Air Temperatures) are cooled.


We all know in a traditional oldskool intercooler system, the 'charge air' (intake air compressed by the turbo), is cooled down through an air-to-air frontmount intercooler. See picture below (sorry, could not find immeditaly a bigger one):

Now this design has a few drawbacks.

• First of all, this leads to having a huge amount of piping in place. The more piping in place between your turbocharger and your intake manifold... means less a responsive turbo (it take time to get to the correct boostpressure in your intake manifold). You want to achieve the shortest distance as possible between the compressor outlet of your turbo and te inlet of your intake manifold.
• Secondly, outside air does not provide such good heat transfer to cool down the charge air

In the old days, it was 'fairly easy' to have better cooling of your charge air, especially when fitting bigger turbo's runnign high boosts (the more you compress the intake air, the more the charge air is heated up).
The solutoin was: just fit a big frontmount intercooler and that was it.


But as turbo and engine technology evolved, engine compartments were getting smaller, more components required more cooling due to higher OEM horspower levels, fuel saving became a big thing by for example keeping wind resistance to a minimum (also to achieve higher speeds)... there was no more room to fit a bigass frontmount intercooler, it was just inefficient.

And thats when air-to-water charge cooling came into action.
I mean, this air-to-water technology already was present to cool down your engine itself (remember: your main enigne radiator).
But people knew that if you want to transfer heat as fast as possible out of the charge air, watercooling was the way to go.

• Water has like 4 times the heat capacity, compared to air

Remember, modern engines require a responsive turbo and fast boost built-up, while still able to cool the charge air as best as possible.

Keeping that responsivness in mind, thats why the outlet of the compressor goes via a 'charge pipe' straight into our intake manifold:

However that charge air, became way hotter then the ambiant air outside (for example, the ambiant air outside is 59 degrees fahrenheit, and after the turbo... the charge air became for example 130 degrees fahrenheit).

We all know that hotter air... can lead to pre-ignition in the combustion chamber (to countermeasure we inject less fuel, leading to less horsepower). So we need to get that charge air cooldown to the lowest value as possible.

What is that solution: you guessed it, we require an intercooler. But because our charge air goes straight into the intake manfifold, we have to build that intercool into the intake manifold itself (we don't do it via a frontmount intercooler, but an integrated intercooler). Below a picture when looking into the intake manifold:

Because the intercooler is integrated, we can't run it as an air-to-air intercooler. There is no 'cool outside' air present inside the manifold.

Thats where the first part of the air-to-water cooling comes into play.
By running cold water through the intercooler, we can cool our charge air theoretically to temperatures as low as the water itself is.

Great, we found a solution on how we can cool our charghe-air. However this raises an additional question.... how can we keep that cooling water, as cool as possible?
The water will heat up eventually, due to the temperature of the charge air.

And that is where the heat exchanger comes into action:

The hot water flows into a front-mounted heat exchanger (don't confuse it with an intercooler, altough the same sort of functionality applies to it).

To cool down the hot water flowing through the heat exchanger, we use the outside air which flows through the fins of the heat exchanger.

And the function of the electric chareair waterpump, is to flow the coolant water between the integrated intercooler (part of the intake manifold) and the frontmount heat exchanger.

That why refer to tthe functions:

• It is an air-to-water intercooler (integrated into the intake manifold, to cool the charge air)
• It is an air-to-water heatexchanger (front mounted, to cool the coolant water of the air-to-water intercooler)

So to summarize on how IAT (Intake Air Temperatures) are cooled:

• Intake air goes via the airfilter into the turbo
• The turbo compresses the air, and heats up the air
• The charge air now travels straight into the intake manifold, for efficient boost builtup
• There is an air-to-water intercooler integrated in the manifold, so that the charge air is cooled down by the coolant water
• The coolant water of the intercooler travels to a frontmount heat exchanger
• The frontmount air-to-water heat exchanger cools down the coolant water of the intercooler

This means in case of big turbo upgrades, which result in higher temperatures of the charge air, we only have two possible upgrade options:

1. Fit a better/bigger frontmount heat exchanger
2. Fit a better/bigger intake manifold, as the intercooler is integrated into it

As you know by now through the explanation, both the intercooler and heat exchanger, work in tandem. You can't exclude one from another... they work together.

So fitting a big ass intake manifold, will result in a bigger surface to cool the charge air. However if the heat exchanger is not up to the task to also cool down the coolant water of that intercooler... over time, the system will start heat soaking.

The same applies to the heat exchanger. You can fit as huge heat eschanger to keep the temperature of the coolant water of the intercooler as low as possible, if the intercooler does not have to surface volume to dispeat that heat of the charge air... over time the system will start heat soaking.

Again, both are required. Which one do you require to upgrade first... it will depend on what you do with the car and under which conditions. In my personal opinion, I would first upgrade the heat exchanger, when you daily your car or take it for a 'spiritual driving'.

 

[Rocksandblues]

OH thanks! ton of great info

Let us know if the higher flowing pump has any gains?

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