Seeking more info on JB4 Map 6 tuning

[Jesse DaBears]

I am also just looking for a good baseline to start with on my manual.

User adjustments are pretty laid out. Just start plugging in numbers based on your logs. Run map 1 or 2 or whatever map you want and then read your logs and see what you need to change.

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[ColonelAdama]

I am also just looking for a good baseline to start with on my manual.

Post your Map 1/2 logs on datazap and share em here!

 

[FLtrackdays]

Ya MTs are nightmares. Let me know when you are ready to get it sorted out. There is not a tq limiter down low ill tell you that much. This goes again with my statement of there will never be a 1 size fits all custom map lol.

Heres one I just finished up last week. 0 Throttle closures (excluding when he has to press clutch to shift) Trims are fine. Hold 18-20 PSI. because its only on 93. I typically will push an MT to 22-23 PSI on a Eblend.

I asked BMS for help with the issues with throttle closures when these first came out but they didnt have an answer at the time. After doing several of these I sorted the issues.

I typically only take on MTs by a case by case basis as these take a lot of work to make happy.

HAVE FUN!

I would assume most modern cars are this sensitive. Gotta say what you did for my map 6 is fantastic Jesse! You truly are a wizard with this stuff ?‍ My Supra gets the slightest bit upset and codes galore (from other things). I wouldn’t even trade my seat out in fear of airbag codes w/out the proper help.

So just repeating ? to anyone else reading this:

1) Jesse can take those worries away and your car will preform incredibly!
2) Hats off to any of you guys with the knowledge (especially Adam) and balls to attempt this!

 

[ColonelAdama]

Well, Map 4 worked really well for me yesterday. Smoother than the handful of Map 6 iterations I tried, as well as Map 1-3.

https://datazap.me/u/coloneladama/2023-supra-mt-map-4?log=0&data=1-4-11-14-18-25-26-27-28

Boost is slightly under target up top, so maybe the wastegate adaption is still learning. But dang! That's a good log for an OTS map. Still a little throttle fluctuation but I don't feel it during the pull since boost is steady.

@Jesse DaBears , does Duty bias affect OTS maps?

 

[ColonelAdama]

@Jesse DaBears , does Duty bias affect OTS maps?

Answer from BMS:

• Duty bias values are global so they affect all maps. (absolute targeting only - map 4 and 5)
• FF value is saved PER MAP.
• Wastegate Adaption is default on for all OTS absolute maps (map 4 & 5)

Going to try Map 4 again this afternoon but with Duty Bias adjustments to meet boost targets 4000+ rpm.

If that is a success, I will try the same with Map 5 since I'm running E30.

Still no answers to why Map 6 runs like crap, even when I use the exact boost targets as Map 4.

 

[ColonelAdama]

Answer from BMS:

• Duty bias values are global so they affect all maps.
• FF value is saved PER MAP.
• Wastegate Adaption is turned on for all OTS absolute maps (map 4 & 5)

Going to try Map 4 again this afternoon but with Duty Bias adjustments to meet boost targets 4000+ rpm.

If that is a success, I will try the same with Map 5 since I'm running E30.

Still no answers to why Map 6 runs like crap, even when I use the exact boost targets as Map 4.

Spent 2 hrs logging yesterday, definitely made some improvements. I believe I have my duty bias curve completely finished. I am consistently hitting boost targets on Map 4. Some throttle closures but nothing abrupt enough to bother me.

My new issue is that the car keeps throwing a CEL for overboost, meaning the car's ECU is already requesting very high boost targets, then when there is some overshoot, JB4 tells the car's ECU boost is too high to bring it back down.

My runs tomorrow will be dropping FF down a few to keep boost just a bit under target to prevent the CEL. Then we kick the boost targets up in Map 5.

Not sure who cares but I had some logs to share - you can see the FF curve matches WGDC pretty well, so the Duty bias values are good for my specific car (and maybe other MT catless Supras)
https://datazap.me/u/coloneladama/me-m4?log=0&data=1-2-3-4-8-9-15-20&zoom=0-51

ignore some of the later logs in that file, I was playing around with PID gain, but found it best to stay between 20-22.

 

[ColonelAdama]

Spent 2 hrs logging yesterday, definitely made some improvements. I believe I have my duty bias curve completely finished. I am consistently hitting boost targets on Map 4. Some throttle closures but nothing abrupt enough to bother me.

My new issue is that the car keeps throwing a CEL for overboost, meaning the car's ECU is already requesting very high boost targets, then when there is some overshoot, JB4 tells the car's ECU boost is too high to bring it back down.

My runs tomorrow will be dropping FF down a few to keep boost just a bit under target to prevent the CEL. Then we kick the boost targets up in Map 5.

Not sure who cares but I had some logs to share - you can see the FF curve matches WGDC pretty well, so the Duty bias values are good for my specific car (and maybe other MT catless Supras)
https://datazap.me/u/coloneladama/me-m4?log=0&data=1-2-3-4-8-9-15-20&zoom=0-51

ignore some of the later logs in that file, I was playing around with PID gain, but found it best to stay between 20-22.

Lowering the FF was the wrong path. A closer look at logs show that I'm getting throttle closure due to the following:

1. Boost is not targeting quick enough, so the JB4 sends a low boost signal to ECU (lower than it ever should - even with JB4)
2. ECU sees the low boost and adds timing
3. Boost kicks in and there's way too much timing
4. Throttle closes in response to excess boost
5. JB4 PID tries to sort this out, causing boost oscillations and roughness

Reviewing my best logs showed that FF was actually higher than default in the problematic RPM areas. Higher FF keeps the wastegate closed more than stock to build boost quicker.

This afternoon I'll be raising the FF higher than I have ever before, and leaving wastegate adaption on to see if it adapts down at all.

 

[S2gizzle]

Enjoying the updates

 

[ColonelAdama]

Enjoying the updates

It's the diary of a shade-tree tuner trying to figure out the trickiest JB4 B58 car ?

Glad y'all appreciate it.

 

[ColonelAdama]

Probably going to be taking a break for a while. 3 two hour logging seshes and haven't really made any progress.

Used DoE (design of experiments) to try nearly every combination of settings in reasonable ranges, and not one without throttle closures. Some worked fine for a day, but had issues later. Thought I had it sorted out yesterday, but same map is driving like shit today.

Sad to say I will just be setting a low torque Map 6 up with little to no added boost below 4.5k. This is what Burger told me to do to begin with. Jesse said MTs could be properly Map 6 tuned, but I'm still not convinced that there isn't a torque limiter. Throttle closures regardless of how well matched FF/WGDC is. And when I do have it hitting boost targets perfect, I get overboost CELs.

I should still be able to get good peak power from this and I guess it will be better for the clutch too.

Will report back with logs and settings. In the meantime, if you have an MT Supra and want a JB+/JB4, please avoid getting a downpipe. Its well documented that B58+JB4+downpipe is a nightmare in certain cars (https://www.jb4tech.com/forum/non-e...14100-b58-dp-hesitation-at-low-throttle/page2). I am certain I would already have my car running right on JB4 on stock downpipe.

 

[Jesse DaBears]

Probably going to be taking a break for a while. 3 two hour logging seshes and haven't really made any progress.

Used DoE (design of experiments) to try nearly every combination of settings in reasonable ranges, and not one without throttle closures. Some worked fine for a day, but had issues later. Thought I had it sorted out yesterday, but same map is driving like shit today.

Sad to say I will just be setting a low torque Map 6 up with little to no added boost below 4.5k. This is what Burger told me to do to begin with. Jesse said MTs could be properly Map 6 tuned, but I'm still not convinced that there isn't a torque limiter. Throttle closures regardless of how well matched FF/WGDC is. And when I do have it hitting boost targets perfect, I get overboost CELs.

I should still be able to get good peak power from this and I guess it will be better for the clutch too.

Will report back with logs and settings. In the meantime, if you have an MT Supra and want a JB+/JB4, please avoid getting a downpipe. Its well documented that B58+JB4+downpipe is a nightmare in certain cars (https://www.jb4tech.com/forum/non-e...14100-b58-dp-hesitation-at-low-throttle/page2). I am certain I would already have my car running right on JB4 on stock downpipe.

Its not a tq limiter. Lets see your map that you came up with with Terry curious if you guys are even in the right ballpark of what to do.

Remember next time you want to post about im a waste of money just know I have plenty of manuals that I have done as well as over 300 Supras in general

 

[ColonelAdama]

Its not a tq limiter. Lets see your map that you came up with with Terry curious if you guys are even in the right ballpark of what to do.

Remember next time you want to post about im a waste of money just know I have plenty of manuals that I have done as well as over 300 Supras in general

Look man, you know very well that I have referred people to you who have no interest in learning to do it themselves. It's not like I'm trying to take your business, I'm a hobbyist.

My beef is with the lack of knowledge resources to DIY. You are withholding that information from BMS themselves, whereas I am trying to work with them providing feedback so they can help the MT community.

And by the way, I've seen logs from your MT customers as well as settings.

 

[Jesse DaBears]

Look man, you know very well that I have referred people to you who have no interest in learning to do it themselves. It's not like I'm trying to take your business, I'm a hobbyist.

My beef is with the lack of knowledge resources to DIY. You are withholding that information from BMS themselves, whereas I am trying to work with them providing feedback so they can help the MT community.

And by the way, I've seen logs from your MT customers as well as settings.

The big issue is even if you get settings from customers of mine its not going to help thats the big thing Ive been trying to explain to you. Not every car is going to react the same.

Lets see your map.

Also, i was referring to this....

 

[ColonelAdama]

The big issue is even if you get settings from customers of mine its not going to help thats the big thing Ive been trying to explain to you. Not every car is going to react the same.

Lets see your map.

Also, i was referring to this....

Terry's words, not mine. ?‍

You can't seriously believe you understand the JB4 better than its inventor right? You understand the quirks related to this single platform, and withhold that info for an easy buck.

Not sure why I'll even bother sharing because no one is gonna give positive feedback.

2023 Supra MT Catless/E30 - Low torque map for 93

FF adapted to something like 54. PID = 20

You can see DME_BT dips at 4k causing a WGDC and Throttle drop - current issue working on.

 

[Jesse DaBears]

Terry's words, not mine. ?‍

You can't seriously believe you understand the JB4 better than its inventor right? You understand the quirks related to this single platform, and withhold that info for an easy buck.

Not sure why I'll even bother sharing because no one is gonna give positive feedback.

FF adapted to something like 54. PID = 20

You can see DME_BT dips at 4k causing a WGDC and Throttle drop - current issue working on.

"You can't seriously believe you understand the JB4 better than its inventor right? You understand the quirks related to this single platform, and withhold that info for an easy buck."

LOL ok...

I was honestly going to help steer you in the right direction but since you still want to throw shade have fun. You guys arent even close the getting to the real issues. Wait utill you actually try pushing more than what 1-2 psi over stock....

Send me a DM if you cant be a man on the forum and just ask for help nicely and be a little humble. I do way more of these cars than anyone. I did do custom maps for free and ask to be just tipped but when people were sending me 20 bucks for hours of work I said fuck that. There's a demand for the service you want to knock me for doing it but yet you cant even figure it out with the help of BMS.

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