The MKIV vs MKV Thread

[PerformanceSound]

I don't plan on selling any of my supras... Adding an A90 would be fun.

Sweet!

I think the A90’s will be the new norm for 1000hp Supra’s on YouTube.

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[outofstep]

Likely laugh at the folks that paid 90k for a 400 hp special edition Supra. Then watch as their mk4s appreciate even faster in value.

That's my guess.

 

[BrettS]

Likely laugh at the folks that paid 90k for a 400 hp special edition Supra. Then watch as their mk4s appreciate even faster in value.

That's my guess.

From what’s been said lately about the serialized cars I can’t see that happening at all. Mkiv prices I feel have maxed out and will likely stay the same for a while

 

[boodjohn]

I have to agree.

MkIV might hold their value stronger or appreciate higher. One of thee last true toyota sports car product (excluding lexus).

 

[MA617M]

They'll do the same as BNR34 prices. Slowly appreciate, largely unaffected by the R35, as they're a different era, different beast.

 

[Australian of The North]

[content removed]

 

[RyanGT3RS]

If the A90 is not better than the A80 25 years on, it would be a disaster for Toyota's image. So we know it is better, no doubting that, i wont disagree.

However, its not drastically better. Its marginally better, and not enough to meet progression or reasonable expectations.

Regardless, The A80 is truly the more fun, enjoyable and rewarding car.

Why?
The A90 is now an electronic device thst tricks and disconnects the driver.
Its Automatic, you dont change really gears. Thers no skill needed to shift. it has electric steering, you dont really steer, its an electric throttle, so you dont really accelerate. The CPU takes your inputs, decides how they should be applied, and uses electrical motors to adjust. Want to drop down a gear? Want to kick the rear out? It only does it for you after fixing your shitty driving, or not at all if chooses to. It might aswell just be autonomous and tell you to admire the scenery.

Like any modern car, the driver is more a navigational guidline. The A90 is garnished fake vents which do nothing, so why have them?, Same goes for the fake sound in the cabin, and the toyta badges hiding bmw parts. If it has to fake it, then its clearly hiding something - fix the hidden problems instead.

The A80 is old school stupid. Apart from it being more practical, you also need a skill to change gears correctly and at the precisely right time, you need a skill to power on at the right times, you need a skill to manage 3 pedals with 2 feet, you need skill to get the turn to hit an apex just right. Your the CPU.

Thats rewarding, thats what makes driving great. Taking it away is removing the best parts. There's no fun in an A90 doing that for you. Yes the A80 has some driver aids, but nothing remotly close to the A90's get in an "be driven". Watch its driving videos. The drivers just get in and plant it, then saw at the wheel just using one foot for everything. Its too simple and easy. If i wanted that, id buy a Tesla.

The A80 lets you and you alone drive, and its easily a better experience overall. Faster does NOT mean more fun or rewarding, (despite the fact a basic modifed A80 IS much,much faster)

Its why we still have drivers in F1 with a shitload of controls. We dont need them, automation could make it faster. Being able to step out after a long run and think "that was all me, i got the gearing right, i got the drift right, i got the turns spot on, i earned that lap time" all that is its own reward, and its more appreciated by others, hence why Motorsport in general blocks driver aids.

That reward is not going to be possible in an A90. The A90 is bit like a chapperone. You wanted to go see deadpool 1 &2 in all their glory, but you ended up with the PG version because it knows whats best for you. You know what It gave you is a better version, you know it is better for you, and you tell everyone how great the A90 is because its newer, smarter, faster.... But what you got sux in long term enjoyment comparison.

I cant help but wonder... If they ever make a100 supra, and its fully automated with no steering wheel... Will people also praise it as better, just because its faster?

I like the A90 i really do, it will be a great car car. But if im going on a driving holiday around europe, or north America, with focus on real driving fun, Id take anything thats more driver connected over it, and the A80 is way up higher on that list. It will be much, much more fun.

Love the mkiv supras like most do, but a “drivers car” it was not, I disagree. The drivers car in that era, imo, was the NSX, and RX7. They were more focused, steered better, chassis was better.

Not saying they are bad, the Supra built its reputation on making loads of power, reliably, and easily. Again, not saying they can’t handle either, they were phenomenal. Just not as hardcore as the rx7 and NSX in the feel and driving dynamics department.

Just my two cents


You also have not driven a a90 and making assumptions based on what merit? Wait and see, this Supra is supposed to be more focused as a “drivers car” where chassis, steering, balance, all in one.

Lol, three pedals? Electric steering? I understand the need and desire for manuals, but come drive a gt3rs and you’ll change your mind. One of the best drivers car ever made, with a PDK transmission and “terrible” electric steering like the old NSX and s2000’s.

 

[KahnBB6]

Well, I don't own an MKIV so the rarity and extreme cost I would have paid in don't apply... but my SC does have a fully hand rebuilt to original spec restored USDM 320hp 2JZGTE with the correct R154 manual to fit the original manual chassis. I even had a Soarer Z30 side mount intercooler re-cored with air flow exceeding the MKIV's stock intercooler. A lot of work was done to the chassis and rest of the driveline too.

Today the MKIV Supra TT engine is not all that impressive power-wise in *stock* form (as I've left this one). I mean, it's a very respectable number that's plenty for everyday fun driving and the sequential turbos are VERY responsive... but I love the classic powerplant for what it is and as such I'm keeping my SC alongside any other newer cars I add to the stable. Driving it never gets old or boring. It's always a fun experience.

Someone in an MKIV TT will similarly never be bored with the drive AND in addition they're never going to stop getting attention when out and about because of how the Supra looks both to those in the know and to people who don't even know what it is other than it looks like an exotic. Which it kind of is.

But it is an old car with old technology. It's a huge part of its appeal even with the wealth of new aftermarket parts and programmable ECUs available. It's a ludicrously capable driveline if you want fairly reliable mega horsepower.

I would think this remains to be the appeal of actual MKIVs from stock show quality restored examples to the high horsepower modified examples.

The top-tier MKV's, especially if they are offered with manual gearboxes, will probably prove to at least match the 2JZGTE's old technology with brand new tech and achieve close to or the same ultimate power levels... if what has been hinted at is true.

A friend of mine with a couple of MKIV TT 6-speeds is is really keeping them as investments for the time being and is babying them until he eventually sells them all. He's not worried about the values on his MKIVs and I tend to agree with him: I think those cars will become more and more recognized as the classic milestone cars that they are. After all they only made 12k for the USA and there are less in circulation now.

The trouble with MKIV's going forward is critical OEM parts support. Toyota has helped in some instances keeping some parts in long term production but others, especially cosmetic parts or V160 parts are more of a growing issue. Aside, that is something Akio Toyoda really should address similar to Nissan's Heritage Parts Program for the GT-R's. There are sometimes alternatives from the community but increasingly I think not everyone will want to risk driving them just anywhere any time... which will not be an issue with brand new MKV's that will have so many variants available.

The real curiosity is how accessible the new best engine tech from the MKVs will be without the chassis themselves and how, if at all, the 2JZ engine swap scene and its popularity will be affected.

If the B58's with CGI blocks and traditional exhaust port cylinder heads manage to find notoriety not just in the MKV Supra scene but eventually with other project cars as well then I think we'll really see a seismic shift in the MKIII Supra, MKIV Supra and larger 1JZ/2JZ scene.

 

[Death666wish_]

I think the prices will either stabilize and stop increasing, or they will go down a tad bit and stay there. I don't think they'd get a lot lower, but I know they won't keep creeping up. A lot of people won't accept the new Supra, but most will, not just the GRMN one, but even the base one, from my understanding that people are getting around 410 whp out of the B58 with just a downpipe and a tune, so it's not really incompetent.

 

[PerformanceSound]

The “make big power on stock components” was the major factor all along for me....and i think many others. Why? Because that was and continues to be the appeal of the MKIV Supra’s, the stout powertrain and drivetrain. Look at how many people swap 2JZ’s in other cars. Even Tada himself said if your in love with the 2JZ, buy the base MKV Supra and swap the engine. Think about that for a second...to me, that meant the chief engineer is saying the base cars are not the ones that will appeal to the MKIV enthusiast crowd, so swap a 2JZ in it to make yourselves happy. It’s the special cars that (from what I have heard) will be the true MKIV successors....the cars that will handle 1000hp no problem .

 

[Death666wish_]

I actually meant the B58 not the B48, I highly doubt you'd get 400 from just a downpipe with that 4 banger

 

[DesmoSD]

This will be MKIV owners when a MKV pulls up to Toyota Fest in L.A or Supras in Vegas...

"Check out my new TOYOTA Supra!"

 

[Death666wish_]

Meh, BMW, Toyota, Datsun, a Supra's a Supra.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Interesting video:



Merry Christmas!

 

[KahnBB6]

I agree with this guy. Even power mod potential at the levels he's talking about given the weight of the MKV will not equal a "failure". Even the factory power levels for the non-GRMN/TRD versions, assuming they're 335hp and 382hp respectively, are going to sell (assuming a vehicle market overrun by mediocre CUVs, SUVs and crossovers that only have the selling points of ever-larger distracting dash touchscreens doesn't kill all the interesting cars first. I digress.)

And I do think a good number of people, not just the Supra MKIV diehards, will be interested in M/T Supra MKVs. Plenty will want the automatic too but given what the car is I can see this as being a manual take rate at least approaching the FR-S/GT86/BRZ and WRX.

The big questions for the ultimate high strength versions remain though:

-Forged crank? (all?)
-traditional exhaust ports w/Yamaha cylinder head? (TRD/GRMN spec only? Will the 382hp head also have regular ports?)
-unique larger twin scroll turbo than the lesser trims? (TRD/GRMN spec only?)
-Staged ECU tuning for each horsepower tier (I expect this)
-Tuneable/eventually crackable and flash-able ECUs even on the lower trims? (this is just me being wishful)
-GS6-45BZ 6-speed M/T transmission available? (on... well... any trim level at all? But hopefully not JUST on the TRD/GRMN)
-Another lesser 6-speed M/T available for even basic trim levels to still let the entry level folks have fun?
-Torsen LSD available on all trims? (I would fully expect this... since the GT86 has it standard and this car is superior)
-Torsen/mechanical + vectoring diff on the TRD/GRMN models? (I think Tada has already confirmed this)

My final wondering is the size, thickness and CFM efficiency of the stock 6-cylinder intercooler(s) since there is a split nose design. It wouldn't surprise me if FMICs won't work in this car without a custom aftermarket bumper which changes the nose shape significantly. Rather, I can see people using rather large uprated twin symmetrical intercoolers a la R35 GTRs and the old JWT tuned Z32-TT's.

Bell intercooler of Texas was able to take a stock 1991 era 214cfm Z30 Soarer side mount intercooler (metal end tanks) that I gave them and put a modern core design into its same dimensions to go up to somewhere close to or ever so slightly over 400cfm with 2018 technology. It's a small intercooler but that is a big jump compared to what Toyota could do with it in 1991 and similarly with the MKIV's plastic end tank 305cfm intercooler in 1992. If an aftermarket intercooler company could do that for me I can only imagine what Toyota and BMW have been able to do with modern high flow side mount IC's for various power trims of the MKV.

Just looking at the nose design I can see this consideration going well beyond stock configurations. Maybe I'll be wrong, too but they did it for a good reason with the MKIV TT's after all.

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