The MKIV vs MKV Thread

[PerformanceSound]

^^ Yes. And I know you know Tetsuya Tada has gone on record before in the last two years more than once to state that the MKV development began first as a co-development of the underpinning platform and then after they developed it at first normally and got initial feedback Tada shifted into developing full MKV racing trims before gradually moving from there down through the production trim levels.

Usually you do not do that when preparing a normal car for release. Even BMW does it the other way around with their M cars: normal model first, factory performance special second.

The detuned versions selling first, including auto-only for 2019 models, is guaranteed to sell more than the models we're all interested in. Although so far I don't actually think even the "regular" MKV's will be in any way bad. They just won't be what you and A70 have referred to as the later "Alpha" cars.

I'm also of the mind that I don't think there isn't a lot to dislike about the lesser MKV variants (considering the 4cyl turbo versions, remember once long ago the MKIII came in a 2.0L I6 turbo 200-230hp 1G-GTE with a W58) so long as they have manuals available. Those just obviously aren't going to be what the high end I6's and especially GRMN/TRD's will be.

Like you I am patiently waiting to hear details on when, when for which trim levels, when for any manual trim levels.... and of course how much for each. And just how rare even the lesser trims will be. If we only get I6 versions in the USA I imagine they may well be not so common to see on the road despite high allocation for Japan and the USA.

...

And thanks for the compliment! The SC project has been going very well. It's nearly completed and is well into normal use. There are a couple of final kinks to work out, the solving of which has been delayed over the holidays but once sorted next month it will be in full semi-DD service with the remaining cosmetic restoration to follow. The latest is detailed on my thread if you're curious

I miss seeing your updates for your now sold Z32 project but I know where your long term focus has been lately Still, I'll be excited to see if you do anything with the 2JZ driveline you've built.

Exactly! I don't think the base models or mid-level trims will be "lesser" in any way. I think all versions of the MKV will have some unique characteristics to them that will appeal to different audiences. That is what's so cool about Toyota's approach to all this....they really want to get a Supra in everyone's hands. Ford seems to be doing well with their Mustangs this way....why not? It's a proven way of maximizing profits, and I think that's the "cost cutting" part everyone is overlooking. The MKV Supra's cost cutting is not the platform sharing of a BMW, but more so how easy it will be for them to build a "right" Supra for anyone, if that makes sense.

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[PerformanceSound]

Looking back at the MKIV Supra, it really wasn't any different in terms of goal. Toyota wanted to have a halo car back then, and used an existing platform from the Soarer/SC right? What was different though...the engine, transmission, brakes, rear end, body panels, etc... Fast forward 20yrs+ later, and everyone wants a MKIV but not a SC/Soarer (at least not as much as a MKIV)....why??? It's those components I mentioned above. No one cared that the Supra was built off of a Soarer/SC, even though they were so similar....it was the hardware. Now, everyone is upset why a MKV Supra is sharing a platform from another car??? Well, suppose Toyota does something really crazy like (ohhhhh i don't know) put a really strong engine, really strong manual transmission, really strong and advanced rear end, and some ehm-ehm 6 piston calipers, and make it the TT 6spd of 2020.....how will people react then???

I can't wait...as @A70TTR once said, "it is a great time to be alive."

 

[McWicked]

PerformanceSound reminds of that kid in school who went around ranting about how much he hated this one girl. Hated her, her stupid clothes, her stupid hair, and her stupid stuck-up friends. Then someone slipped him a note saying she liked him...

It's been true Alpha love ever since.

 

[PerformanceSound]

PerformanceSound reminds of that kid in school who went around ranting about how much he hated this one girl. Hated her, her stupid clothes, her stupid hair, and her stupid stuck-up friends. Then someone slipped him a note saying she liked him...

It's been true Alpha love ever since.

Yes, I have to agree with that assessment sir.

 

[outofstep]

With a solid meh, based on the price/performance of the aenemic regular model. Toyota is tarded and will likely want 6 digits for the performance version, just to get the same specs as a base mustang.

ETA... This forums quote function blows. Tried to quote performance sounds post

 

[KahnBB6]

Exactly! I don't think the base models or mid-level trims will be "lesser" in any way. I think all versions of the MKV will have some unique characteristics to them that will appeal to different audiences. That is what's so cool about Toyota's approach to all this....they really want to get a Supra in everyone's hands. Ford seems to be doing well with their Mustangs this way....why not? It's a proven way of maximizing profits, and I think that's the "cost cutting" part everyone is overlooking. The MKV Supra's cost cutting is not the platform sharing of a BMW, but more so how easy it will be for them to build a "right" Supra for anyone, if that makes sense.

^^ You're on to something with the current Mustang variant analogy. Ford finally figured out their formula by 2012 and by the 2015 redesign are doing exactly this. I think for the Supra it will be more like a throwback to the many variants the JDM MKIII's only with much less volume but I think you're right about their general approach. Not a cheap car but definitely affordable and accessible if you can't afford a $95k(?) (I'm completely speculating with with that figure) MKV TRD.

Since this is not a car locked into a $25k base price range and since it is expected to be both tuneable AND progressively torquey with a turbo on every offering it will not be the same situation as with the chassis of the GT86 not being designed for mega torque or the FA20 in the GT86 not being set up from the factory to handle bolt-on boost for 20+ years. (Aside, I've mentioned before that I've never had a problem with what the GT86 is as a fun and practical little RWD coupe-- because it was so obviously NOT a Supra but something else entirely).

The MKV trims should all do something special given that they're all turbo and have torque and likely have some version of a recent Toyota ECU that we'll find has already been mostly cracked by the aftermarket. And on top of that, there is always whatever the top-range I6 turbo is and the VERY top-range TRD/GRMN Alpha.

Now that being said, I also don't want to see a situation where the parts that really hold the most power are such unobtanium to begin with that no one starts playing with the platform too much. The Yamaha cylinder head with the traditional exhaust ports has got to be available and swappable onto the non-alpha MKV I6's.

Which then makes me think that if Toyota really wants to do this right at the very least the B58 blocks in all the I6 MKVs should be full volume CGI.... if that proves to be a truth come January 14 2019.

Looking back at the MKIV Supra, it really wasn't any different in terms of goal. Toyota wanted to have a halo car back then, and used an existing platform from the Soarer/SC right? What was different though...the engine, transmission, brakes, rear end, body panels, etc... Fast forward 20yrs+ later, and everyone wants a MKIV but not a SC/Soarer (at least not as much as a MKIV)....why??? It's those components I mentioned above. No one cared that the Supra was built off of a Soarer/SC, even though they were so similar....it was the hardware. Now, everyone is upset why a MKV Supra is sharing a platform from another car???

As an owner of an SC that has 90% of those desirable parts swapped in... this is a very fair assessment. I liked the SC because I found a factory manual and I knew what I *could* do with it if I chose to go to the trouble... and because I personally liked that it was an old stylish Lexus with a leather interior and wood trim like an LS400... only with curves everywhere and only two doors. And a separate trunk. And a big back seat in its 2+2 frame that is second in depth only to the hilariously cavernous 2+2 rear seating in a 2004-2007 Pontiac GTO.

I wasn't expecting it to be a platform for a substitute of a Supra MKIV TT. I wanted to swap in a lot of TT hardware and be much faster, stop much better, handle much better and even have bucket seats that aren't like the stock la-z-boys but I liked it as an SC. Albeit as a potentially really modified one down the road.

All of this is why I still like mine today.

However... for most people interested in SC's the desire is to install the stronger MKIV, Soarer, Chaser, Mark II or Aristo hardware in these cars to have some form of a 1JZ or 2JZ turbo and use it as a poor man's Supra MKIV starting point. That takes some work and a lot of money that only some people are willing to do. Many people don't realize how much it costs to properly build up any SC or MKIV NA. The costs to do so, especially if you aren't handy to do a good deal of work yourself... really adds up. It's the same with any built project car but still.

If the SC's were made to be mechanically identical to the Z30 Soarer 1JZ-GTE's with the LSD and stronger manual trans options the appeal in the USA might have been different... but it isn't. Car people and Toyota gearheads love powerfully modified SC's and clean resto-modded or immaculate totally original ones with low miles but there isn't a very healthy market for them generally.

MKIV's on the other hand...

...they just WERE exotic looking from new and still hold the same appeal today. They were special sports machines to begin with and the TT 6-speeds had all the hardware that were instantly recognized to be the real deal. The MKIV Supra NA's had the same beautiful shape and still had special appeal out the door even if they weren't nearly as fast in stock form. And today even the MKIV NA chassis are extremely high value and desirable that the same limited financial value proposition as applied to an SC makes far more long term investment sense when doing exactly the same things to an MKIV NA Auto as a starting point for exactly the same money invested.

Anyway... any MKIV be it an immaculate low miles TT 6-speed or an average needs-TLC MKIV NA Automatic just have a totally different level of appeal and legend behind them. It's simply what they are mechanically, how beautiful they are, how rare they are and how famous they are as part of a Japanese sportscar icon.

For Toyota, spreading out the use of the platform for three different models at the Motomachi plant helped make the 1992-2002 MKIV NA and TT possible. Spreading out the 1JZ and 2JZ engine architecture throughout quite a number of non-Supra Toyota and Lexus models made it possible to sell some performance Toyotas with the legendary 2JZ-GTE and its older and less ultimate but still highly respected brother the 1JZ-GTE into the VVT-i years.

As of now Toyota has no shared I6 engine architecture and it has no other volume coupe platform from which to derive a lower volume halo Supra variant that is meant to be available for around $55k or so.

Well, suppose Toyota does something really crazy like (ohhhhh i don't know) put a really strong engine, really strong manual transmission, really strong and advanced rear end, and some ehm-ehm 6 piston calipers, and make it the TT 6spd of 2020.....how will people react then???

I can't wait...as @A70TTR once said, "it is a great time to be alive."

Now you see... you're making me grow a REALLY wide grin like a hyperactive six year old when you say it THAT way

And as to how people will react? Well... I would think the people most interested in an MKV with specs like those would react positively. That's definitely not going to be a "cheap" MKV Supra but that kind of equipment would make it the *right* top range Supra.

And considering that the old MKIV NA Automatic open-diff trim level of old was easily the one penalty/poser MKIV model you really didn't want (or would never leave stock if you were a second or third owner) because it was so slow and anemic then as long as Toyota keeps all of the trim levels fun and fast and engaging then the entire model run should have good sales.

And I can't say it enough though I know it's a dead horse. I'll happily keep beating this dead horse. ALL the MKV trim levels need manual transmission options. Not just the TRD/GRMN/Alphas. The lesser Supra GR I6 turbos and the Supra 2.0T 4cyl turbos. If it's the last non-hybrid pure engine Toyota sportscar then it's now or never. They've certainly got the money to do it and we know that at least one MKV prototype has been photographed with a stick-shift gearbox, so...

 

[Bryster]

Do we really have to go through this with every MK IV owner?

It's like facial hair,remove one and two more grow in its place

 

[twntrbo03']

Right...thank you for this....because im sure the main reason people buy or own MKIV’s is to race prep them with $200k dollar suspensions and chassis modifications to chase F1 cars at the Nurburgring??

This video proved nothing....other than alot of money can make any car go fast and handle great.

I never thought I would say this, but the MKV will be a much better car than the MKIV in stock and modified trim....you’ll see.

Bro, you must really overanalyze things people say to you on a daily basis. My comment of "Thank you for this" had nothing to do with you or a shot at you. I simply thought the video was cool as hell. Also... I WANT THE MKV TO DO WELL! I simply stated that MKIV owners will not do a damn thing when the car comes out except maybe buy one... if it is in fact as great as you claim it to be. I'll wait to hear it from the horses mouth and make my judgement when the car is actually released. I have no doubt it will be a great car and it sure as hell be a better car in stock and modified trim than the mkiv…. they've only had 20+ years to think of something. This whole thread was to stir the pot... something you enjoy doing

 

[PerformanceSound]

Bro, you must really overanalyze things people say to you on a daily basis. My comment of "Thank you for this" had nothing to do with you or a shot at you. I simply thought the video was cool as hell. Also... I WANT THE MKV TO DO WELL! I simply stated that MKIV owners will not do a damn thing when the car comes out except maybe buy one... if it is in fact as great as you claim it to be. I'll wait to hear it from the horses mouth and make my judgement when the car is actually released. I have no doubt it will be a great car and it sure as hell be a better car in stock and modified trim than the mkiv…. they've only had 20+ years to think of something. This whole thread was to stir the pot... something you enjoy doing

Cool, thanks for your feedback. Also, if you feel my “over analyzed” comments or responses are too much for you or that I “enjoy stirring the pot”, please avoid commenting on a thread I created ....it’s that easy, no real science to it.

 

[AHP]

Awww... You MKV cheerleaders are cute and all with your straw man justifications and circular back-patting. Echoooooo, echoooo, echoo...


From my purview, there's a rather clear and unfortunate bifurcation among the 'enthusiasts' and that extends far beyond this forum. In essence, those that desperately wanted the MKV to be another world-beater, a 2nd coming, an honest attempt by Toyota to dethrone the current Japanese crown-wearer --and were willing to pay for it-- or nothing. And those that are simply happy to eat up anyone's scraps as long as it's called "Supra", hoping there's a base model variant cheap enough they can afford, so they be 'part of the club', too. Seems the vast majority of current/prior MKIV owners and deep-rooted Supra enthusiasts (among other crowds) tend to fall into the former. The magazine racing, Cars & Coffee crowd and/or BMW fans perhaps more the latter... "Bro, I leased a 335i, it has turbos, bro -- I'm a car guy now.. Have you seen the new Supra!? Maybe I'll get one as a loaner when my valves need to be walnut blasted.."

No one cared that the Supra was built off of a Soarer/SC, even though they were so similar....it was the hardware. Now, everyone is upset why a MKV Supra is sharing a platform from another car???

Pandering to the SC crowd now, yeah..? This is the same tired, half-truth argument SC guys have been parroting since the SC became dirt cheap some years ago. "It's basically a Supra too" and other cries for validation.

LOL

No, no it's not.. "Platform" is rather nebulous. They shared some subframe, suspension components and mounting points. Just because you can NA-T and can share suspension and drivetrain parts does not make it any more "Supra". They are vastly more dissimilar than anything, and anyone that's actually turned wrenches on both can tell you that. Even so, even if they were essentially the same car Lexus = Toyota..! I recognize that may be a surprise to some of the lesser-read, nuevo-car-guys here. Attempting to draw parallels between Lexus SC/Toyota Supra and Toyota re-branding a BMW parts bin car is as laughable as comparing a 2020 MY anything to a 1993. Few, myself included, have any issue with the MKV leveraging a pre-existing platform -- provided it's a Toyota!


Now back to your regularly scheduled omphaloskepsis.

 

[PerformanceSound]

Awww... You MKV cheerleaders are cute and all with your straw man justifications and circular back-patting. Echoooooo, echoooo, echoo...


From my purview, there's a rather clear and unfortunate bifurcation among the 'enthusiasts' and that extends far beyond this forum. In essence, those that desperately wanted the MKV to be another world-beater, a 2nd coming, an honest attempt by Toyota to dethrone the current Japanese crown-wearer --and were willing to pay for it-- or nothing. And those that are simply happy to eat up anyone's scraps as long as it's called "Supra", hoping there's a base model variant cheap enough they can afford, so they be 'part of the club', too. Seems the vast majority of current/prior MKIV owners and deep-rooted Supra enthusiasts (among other crowds) tend to fall into the former. The magazine racing, Cars & Coffee crowd and/or BMW fans perhaps more the latter... "Bro, I leased a 335i, it has turbos, bro -- I'm a car guy now.. Have you seen the new Supra!? Maybe I'll get one as a loaner when my valves need to be walnut blasted.."







Pandering to the SC crowd now, yeah..? This is the same tired, half-truth argument SC guys have been parroting since the SC became dirt cheap some years ago. "It's basically a Supra too" and other cries for validation.

LOL

No, no it's not.. "Platform" is rather nebulous. They shared some subframe, suspension components and mounting points. Just because you can NA-T and can share suspension and drivetrain parts does not make it any more "Supra". They are vastly more dissimilar than anything, and anyone that's actually turned wrenches on both can tell you that. Even so, even if they were essentially the same car Lexus = Toyota..! I recognize that may be a surprise to some of the lesser-read, nuevo-car-guys here. Attempting to draw parallels between Lexus SC/Toyota Supra and Toyota re-branding a BMW parts bin car is as laughable as comparing a 2020 MY anything to a 1993. Few, myself included, have any issue with the MKV leveraging a pre-existing platform -- provided it's a Toyota!


Now back to your regularly scheduled omphaloskepsis.

Damn I’m good...

 

[AHP]

 

[PerformanceSound]

Be careful using big words in your posts bud, you might trip over yourself. Must be all that MKIV testosterone that is giving you a superiority complex. Enjoy it while it lasts....

 

[AHP]

Good lookin out, bro. I'll try to hold off on the polysyllabics. (right click, Search Google for "..)

 

[Rotaryrunner]

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