Time to end my A91 journey?

[Spart]

The $105,000 almost no option GT4 went 12.1 in the quarter and 3.9 to 60, stopped from 70 in 149 feet, and cornered at 1.08 G. This was a manual GT4 and the PDKs will run around 3 or 4 tenths quicker so call it 11.7 or 11.8 with the PDK. I ran an 11.98 in the quarter when my car was stock and the car mags consistently get 12.1 to 12.2 and 3.8 or so to 60 for the Supra automatic. Supra braking is also almost identical. Most tests have been around 150 to 152 feet from 70 with an occasional 149 feet. Cornering is also pretty similar but the Supra is slightly less with most tests in the 1.03G range although there have been a few higher and one at 1.07.

So, yeah, I respectfully disagree. At best the GT4 is only minimally better.

Folks, this is the kind of thinking you do when you run your life with Micosoft Excel.

Also be sure to evaluate potential mating partners using a spreadsheet with no fewer than sixteen data points and microwave your steaks for the fastest cooking times.

?‍

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[Supraman91]

I drove 992 GT3 at PECATL in 2022 and obviously it was on another level from my Supra, but not 5x the price good. Now at 150k? Sure, that's worth it. Just not 250-300...

It certainly felt very precise and put the power down much better. In all honesty though, that car's limits were beyond what I was comfortable with anyway ?

The engine was definitely the star of the show. Sounds like a liter bike and revs like one too.

I actually left PEC with a greater appreciation for the Supra's capability...

I have also track-driven every new M car on sale at the M-performance center in Spartanburg. The only M car I thought felt as nice as the Supra was the F87 M2 competition. The G8X cars felt heavy and do not have the turn-in rotation that the RWD Supra and M2 have. The S58 was bonkers fast though - like 992 GT3 fast ?

I drove 992 GT3 at PECATL in 2022 and obviously it was on another level from my Supra, but not 5x the price good. Now at 150k? Sure, that's worth it. Just not 250-300...

It certainly felt very precise and put the power down much better. In all honesty though, that car's limits were beyond what I was comfortable with anyway ?

The engine was definitely the star of the show. Sounds like a liter bike and revs like one too.

I actually left PEC with a greater appreciation for the Supra's capability...

I have also track-driven every new M car on sale at the M-performance center in Spartanburg. The only M car I thought felt as nice as the Supra was the F87 M2 competition. The G8X cars felt heavy and do not have the turn-in rotation that the RWD Supra and M2 have. The S58 was bonkers fast though - like 992 GT3 fast ?

That’s truly a testament to how great of a value proposition this car is. The very fact that a GT4 vs a Supra as a comparison shows that even more. Though, I do think the GT4 is a good ways ahead of the GTS in terms of driving dynamic. I really just need to drive one.

 

[Supraman91]

Folks, this is the kind of thinking you do when you run your life with Micosoft Excel.

Also be sure to evaluate potential mating partners using a spreadsheet with no fewer than sixteen data points and microwave your steaks for the fastest cooking times.

?‍

Agree. Numbers matter bur experience is key and that just can’t be shown by stats.

 

[tonymimi]

Let's compare some test results. From Car and Driver September 2020 718 Cayman GT4 versus Corvette comparison.

The $105,000 almost no option GT4 went 12.1 in the quarter and 3.9 to 60, stopped from 70 in 149 feet, and cornered at 1.08 G. This was a manual GT4 and the PDKs will run around 3 or 4 tenths quicker so call it 11.7 or 11.8 with the PDK. I ran an 11.98 in the quarter when my car was stock and the car mags consistently get 12.1 to 12.2 and 3.8 or so to 60 for the Supra automatic. Supra braking is also almost identical. Most tests have been around 150 to 152 feet from 70 with an occasional 149 feet. Cornering is also pretty similar but the Supra is slightly less with most tests in the 1.03G range although there have been a few higher and one at 1.07.

So, yeah, I respectfully disagree. At best the GT4 is only minimally better. And lets not forget, Porsche needs the cheater Cup 2 tires to generate this performance while the Supra runs on 2 model year old PSS tires. Swap tires between the cars and which do you think would perform better? Is a few tenths in the quarter and nearly identical braking and cornering worth a MINIMUM $45,000 more? Does the mid-engine car "feel" $45,000 plus better?

Now let's talk mods. I added a catted DP, JB4, custom Jesse Map 6 tune, Eibach Euro springs, a front Eibach sway bar, and Verus Camber plates. I bought the DP and JB4 used from forum members and got Jesse's tune when it was on sale. I traded NitroYellow my factory DP for the Verus plates and some other dress up bits. I did all of the installation myself. All-in I've spent about $2200 on performance mods. Finally, I also picked up spare factory wheels so I can run 200TW RE-71RS tires for autocross. As Car and Driver said once the difference in tires is like the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. Perfect example, 2023 C&D Lightning Lap, simply swapping regular summer rubber to Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tires reduced a 2020 Audi RS3s time by 13 seconds. Think about that. 13 freaking seconds from cheater tires!! In the previous three autocross seasons I've spanked all manner of P-cars. Only two have beaten me and only by a few tenths. One was a $150,000 2020 911 4S with the Chrono and sport suspension packages (PSM something or another, can't remember the abbreviation) and Yoko A052 tires. The second was a closer to $200,000 previous edition (2016 I think) GT4 RS, also fully prepped to SCCA class rules and on A052s. Keep in mind, I'm less than $54,000 all-in here.

And finally, for the track day crowd. Our forum members who really track these cars frequently and hard have commented on numerous occasions how much the Supra punches above its weight class and many have posted on track videos that include absolutely hounding various cars that are 2-3 times more expensive (the GT4 Cayman included). Even here, the mods costs are not huge and even seriously upgrading - like full on coil overs, all the SPL suspension bits, usual power mods, better cooling/intake, etc. - doesn't bring the cost anywhere close to the stock P-Cars. And simply adding a higher performance pad and fluid is all that's necessary on the brake side. Perhaps Rocks and Blues, RazorLab, FLTrack Days, and a couple other road course participants that I can't remember can share their observations between these cars on track.

Bottom line, the Supra is an incredible performance buy that right out of the box hangs with MUCH expensive cars. And a few inexpensive modes and better tires are a game changer. In fact, stock to stock, simply running the Cup 2s on the Supra and the PSSs on the GT4 would change everything. Not going to argue the Cayman "feels" better. However, it's not like the Supra drives horribly by any stretch. It feels pretty damn good in its own right and is a more comfortable daily driver than can just happen to outperform cars that cost 2 or more times as much. And I won't even touch the maintenance aspects. I can change my oil for about$60 in parts and 15 minutes of time. Is that possible in a P-Car?

Don't get me wrong. I love the P-Cars and would have one in a heartbeat if I won the powerball. In the real world, though, I just can't see where those cars are $45,000 MINIMUM, better. And it's not even close.

Financialy, I agree with most of things you said, supra + $45K will probably perform better GT4, but will you be able to fine-tuning it better than Porsche and to make it still drivable as a daily car? And like other people also mentioned GT4 holds it value much more better than Supra, especially for a mod-supra. Yes, Supra will still cost less to own and it has much cheaper maintenance cost.

But my points are still valid tho, GT4 still has PDK and mid-engine feel that Supra lack of and a much nicer interior and looks(for most of people). And yes, Supra already drives pretty good but just not as good as a mid-engine P-car. In fact, even a base 718 has better steering feel than Supra and 991.1 911(not sure about .2 and 992 since I never driven those before).

Porsche really make you pay, but they are really good at making well-balanced car that give you exactly what you want from the chasis and you dont need to mods it at all.

 

[Kobold]

Choose the car that makes you feel happier (driving, looking at it and so on). Personally I would not swap for a 981 GT4 if you don't do track days with it.
I prefer the engine characteristics of the Supra for daily driving.

718 GT4 on the other hand? I would swap in a heartbeat

 

[SupraTR]

I think pretty much everyone has provide there opinions and there are plenty of good views in this thread (coupled with some really dumb comments). But as I'm bored at work (i.e. procrastinating) I will also write a novel. The only car I seriously cross shopped with my Supra was the 718 Cayman and ultimately I landed that I couldn't justify the price increase.

- Money is no object = We can rule that out because this move requires selling the Supra.

- I saw the $45k price difference being thrown around a few times and also "very occasional track use" and "minimal modding". I'll use the $45k as I haven't bothered to look up prices in well over a year now. I do have to ask the question "why the aversion to modding". Plenty of valid reasons but in a sense I'd view a GT4 as a car that is factory modded so if you stick to very high quality and focused modifications...it might be worth it.

- My approach would be with $15k you can greatly improve the Supras performance. Realistically you don't need that much, but my assumption is you wouldn't do any of the modding and this amount should cover suspension upgrades and mild performance upgrades/tune (also I view upgrading the steering wheel as a must if you haven't). Then I'd think about what other way I can use the $30k and whether that will ultimately bring more overall enjoyment. We're talking cars so "invest the $30k" doesn't count here and while there was discussion on value retention its a crap shoot. Sure the GT4 will most likely win by a good bit, but if you invested the 30k over 5-10 years that might completely flip. So I certainly would factor investment into this. Maybe you buy a boat...or upgrade the daily...or $30k for an awesome man cave. Will a tastefully/minimally modded Supra + $30k on whatever bring more enjoyment than the GT4? That would be a very strong indicator one way or the other for me.

In a sense this was the primary deciding factor for me buying the Supra instead of a 718 (most likely would have been an S or a GTS 4.0). I decided I'd much rather have a modded Supra, will have it paid off in about 14 months, and now spend the "savings" on replacing my daily hopefully with the new Tacoma TRD Pro or Ranger Raptor either later this year or during '25. If I had purchased the 718 that daily upgrade would have to be pushed out to '26 or '27 potentially and I'd rather have two vehicles I smile when I jump into both with different use cases.

 

[concept]

Look at the cost of the GT4 and then the performance. (Car & Driver)
That's a lot of money for performance that does not exactly describe a track monster. The GT4 is a very good car, but for that much money, you can do better. I think a Z06 C8 is about there.

 

[FLtrackdays]

My Supra and I are faster than all but a pro driver in a new GT4.
An equal driver in a GT4rs is probably faster.
Put me in a GT4 and you in my Supra I am faster.
A modded track weapon Supra vs GT4 it will really come down to the driver.
The difference- the GT4 is more special, more refined, more of a precise instrument than the Supra. The gt4s will hold their value more and longer and possible even go up
Friends 2016 GT4 that I thought he paid too much for in 2021 is worth exactly the same today. And it is Porsche perfect, is a delight to shift and listen too. He can pound on it at the track and then take his wife out to the fanciest restaurant that night. My wife won't even sit in my modded Supra.

I am a HUGE fan of the Zupra- but it is not a Porsche.

If I only tracked a couple times a year and the rest was fun weekend, winery, etc car 10 out 10 time i would buy a Porsche.

I almost bought a friends GT3 and one of the reasons I did not is they are so nice- I would not be able to drive them at 10/10 effort- they are just too special. My Supra is awesome but has nicks, and dings, and the front looks sand blasted- and yet i wring every ounce out of her every weekend.


.02

bored at work, otherwise I really don't care what the OP does- lol

As usual, spot on amigo. I’ve never had soooooo many Porsche kids/buddies come over and ask me so many questions about this Supra. Including can I drive it? I’m sure you get the same head scratching: “how the hell is he passing me in a Supra?”. Mine still looks “normal”, so I get a few more head scratching. You look faster just sitting still next to me ? - I’d love to compare our lap times at Sebring!

Anyway, that was the first few years. Now that the Supra is established, winning in WRL and others, it’s clear the sum of the BMW parts in this car = more. Next problem with winning, you have to build more:

https://toyotagazooracing.com/pressrelease/2023/0428-02

The race kids get it. This Supra (Toyota) is no joke. So to compare on track is not fair in this post, imo. They are very equal for the average racer. In fact, GT4 case in point, regardless what you do to either car, Toyota happens to be winning right now.

So, back to the daily driver ?

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-bmw-m2-vs-porsche-718-cayman-gts-40-comparison-test-review

 

[bushido]

OP doesn't care about tracking the car or its performance.. he asked which would hold more value or be seen as more special. he also mentioned he babys the car.

if you want opinions in that regard.. never have i considered the cayman an attractive car and never have i seen a decent driver in one. the value of the car is automatically irrelevant because of how ugly it is. and if you're going to baby the car, stay with the supra, which is the better daily driver anyway

 

[Supraman91]

Just wanted to say thanks though for all the input. It’s been helpful to hear some more perspectives and will definitely take them into consideration. I’m going to drive them and report back. I’m also really considering waiting for a GRMN announcement—that would be a sweat spot. Regardless, I’ll let yall know what I do. Thank you!

 

[Marsone]

There are certainly more than a few opinions in this thread up to this point. Here’s my .02.

I think, should you buy the GT4 and then regret it later, it’ll be a lot easier to go back to a Supra and find one in a spec that you like. Whereas if you skip on the GT4 now, but decide you want one in a year or 2, it will likely be more difficult to find another in the spec you want.

 

[Supraman91]

OP doesn't care about tracking the car or its performance.. he asked which would hold more value or be seen as more special. he also mentioned he babys the car.

if you want opinions in that regard.. never have i considered the cayman an attractive car and never have i seen a decent driver in one. the value of the car is automatically irrelevant because of how ugly it is. and if you're going to baby the car, stay with the supra, which is the better daily driver anyway

True, though not solely that. I want the raw experience of a GT car that has ultimate connection in times of where everything’s going electric.

 

[Supraman91]

There are certainly more than a few opinions in this thread up to this point. Here’s my .02.

I think, should you buy the GT4 and then regret it later, it’ll be a lot easier to go back to a Supra and find one in a spec that you like. Whereas if you skip on the GT4 now, but decide you want one in a year or 2, it will likely be more difficult to find another in the spec you want.

Fair. Particularly with the platform going electric. Though, I do think it’ll be hard to find a no major mod, clean A91 w/ low miles.

 

[Bigboss]

Fair. Particularly with the platform going electric. Though, I do think it’ll be hard to find a no major mod, clean A91 w/ low miles.

Are you @Crypto79 twin brother?

 

[GRMan]

Fair. Particularly with the platform going electric. Though, I do think it’ll be hard to find a no major mod, clean A91 w/ low miles.

Platform is not going electric

it will be at most hybrid paired with a carbon neutral fuel ICE. Liquid hydrogen may be in the pipeline

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