Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

DesmoSD

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That transition to EV and hybrid-EV is already starting with the expensive luxury GT sedans. I do like the E-Tron GT as well but I want to see it directly compared to the Porsche Taycan it is based on.

What is "GER" in this context?

As far as the Supra badge going away... you may be right that it's what Toyota will do but it will not be acceptable if they do. Letting the nameplate die because they don't want to try hard to keep the car as much a pure Supra as possible into an electrified era would just be an act of giving up... again. It happened in 2002 when, finally, the manual 2JZ-GTE would no longer pass Japanese emissions regulation but it shouldn't be their decision again.

At minimum there can be a gap of just a *few* short years before an A100 Supra model with new technology... but to abandon the entire sportscar altogether...? You may end up being correct about this but it will not be the right decision from Toyota if that's what comes to pass.

The Supra should remain the unapologetically driver-centric sportscar that it is but no matter what it's driveline will have to change with the times. It's just that the EV and battery technology is currently too bulky and heavy to do it justice in 2021. In a few years though...?

You're spot on with this decade being the beginning of the transition period away from internal combustion engines. Most immediately away from purely gas or purely diesel and into hybrids and some EVs alongside them. For many years there will be both (and whatever existing and older models are around) and eventually it'll be all EV sales. By that time the pure EV tech and battery tech will have improved a lot. Maybe hydrogen infrastructure will have as well, mostly led by the semi truck industry.

E-Fuel was first investigated by Audi and now Porsche as a suitable synthetic CO2 neutral combustible fuel for existing ICE vehicles... but who knows how the volume and cost will work out in the future. Maybe it will only be attainable by the super rich? Whatever comes of that it's not going to be conventional to drive a pure ICE vehicle indefinitely as a regular use vehicle. Certainly the fuel will not be cheap to try to do so. As a special use vehicle only a little of the time? Probably but we'll see.

Just this week Audi announced that they would stop developing new ICE drivetrains and just keep the current combustion powertrains in service until their full EV transition is complete at the end of the decade. They'll do tweaks and costly upgrades to meet new emissions standards but the engine architectures themselves will not change from this point forward however they use them for the next few years.

Most of the industry has been doing much the same.

It won't be all EV's overnight but within a couple of model years there will be many more hybrids of all kinds as EV offerings and tech slowly grow in number.

Now I think we're really off topic so I'll stop my thoughts on that where they are but in so far as getting out for sale a limited final gas-turbo-only ultimate Supra before this rather large transition perhaps it's all relevant.
GER as in Germans. Porsche and Audi. The EU will set the standard then the rest will be forced to follow. IMO, even with the GT86 and Supra, Toyota has still disappointed me. Gone are the Toyota's of the 70's, 80's, 90's and even 2000's where they just made cars that applied to everyone. Design usually met production thus pushing the envelope. Now, Toyota seems to be more reserved then how they used to function.

I would like to see the Supra lineage continue but looking how the current Supra is and the way technology is going, a pure ICE I6 coupe doesn't sound like something would Toyota attempt again.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-gr-supra-for-the-a100-generation-134920.html

If Toyota were to develop the Supra in-house and manufacture the car in the Land of the Rising Sun, the A90 would’ve arrived in 2021 according to chief engineer Tetsuya Tada. The man behind the Supra is also confident the A100 will happen at the right moment, but it’ll probably be different.

My thing with Tada-san and I know this will piss off a lot of fans is that he likes to b/s a lot. It's difficult to take whatever he says seriously because he often contradicts himself and is very passive. Example, vents can be made functional (they are not), the Supra is designed to be modified (locked ECU, bump steer and warranty infringement etc) and a host of other blanket statements with the GT86 back in the 2010-2012 time frame.

All it would really take is one of the major players to design a sleek looking, very quick EV sports coupe to help change the minds of petrol heads. Someone like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, BMW and the dawn of a new era would begin.


Exactly.. 200 units might as well be 2 because none of us mere mortals will ever have the opportunity to own one anyway. Regardless of "MSRP" It will be a who's-who bidding war for a small handful of dealers and they'll be relegated to elite collector circles from here to eternity. Pointless.... Toyota once again proving they don't have a clue and/or a single solitary F to give.
:rofl: Yeah Toyota, you had one job... and you managed to split that one with BMW. Now you've sipped even more Spatan from that beer stein by making the final iteration the unobtainable just like the Germans.

Could you imagine the ADM at the local Toyota dealership for these things. Even at 120K USD, there are plenty of options.
Sponsored

 

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My thing with Tada-san and I know this will piss off a lot of fans is that he likes to b/s a lot. It's difficult to take whatever he says seriously because he often contradicts himself and is very passive. Example, vents can be made functional (they are not), the Supra is designed to be modified (locked ECU, bump steer and warranty infringement etc) and a host of other blanket statements with the GT86 back in the 2010-2012 time frame.
Toyota called me up twice for a questionnaire about the Supra and this is something I harped about both times. I told them that it was pretty underhanded that they had Tada-san out there touting this as a tuners car. It wouldn't surprise me if Toyota continued making it harder and harder for people to make changes to the car with future iterations.

On a side note... When I saw that Heritage Edition Supra back at SEMA 2019 with "real vents" it made me chuckle. Even with cutting out pieces of the car, the vents weren't what I would call functional.

I'm sure at one point during the design process they were functional, but they decided to go this route to keep costs down and replaced them with face vents to retain the more aggressive look.

If the GRMN isn't some kind of pipe... I feel like it will be the version of the car the engineers and designers wanted to make from the get go. But I'm sure executives and share holders were really wanting to fill that $50-$60K mark and felt that going too much over that would not have had a good return on their investments.
 

DesmoSD

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Toyota called me up twice for a questionnaire about the Supra and this is something I harped about both times. I told them that it was pretty underhanded that they had Tada-san out there touting this as a tuners car. It wouldn't surprise me if Toyota continued making it harder and harder for people to make changes to the car with future iterations.

On a side note... When I saw that Heritage Edition Supra back at SEMA 2019 with "real vents" it made me chuckle. Even with cutting out pieces of the car, the vents weren't what I would call functional.

I'm sure at one point during the design process they were functional, but they decided to go this route to keep costs down and replaced them with face vents to retain the more aggressive look.

If the GRMN isn't some kind of pipe... I feel like it will be the version of the car the engineers and designers wanted to make from the get go. But I'm sure executives and share holders were really wanting to fill that $50-$60K mark and felt that going too much over that would not have had a good return on their investments.
That's great as all MKV owners should give their honest feedback. How Toyota processes that is up to them. Hopefully they listen take all of your feedback into account. You guys are the ones who bought the car so your feedback shouldn't be taken lightly. Tada-san openly bragging that it was a tuner's car w/out having a caveat that modifications void the factory warranty could lead to litigation.


If you look at the FT-1, it had huge Ferrari type door vent that looked like it had an exit to the rear bumper. This concept had a huge impact on the design of the MKV. The problem was that the FT-1 was upscaled and GT size. They downscaled it for a two door roadster chassis. IMO, this is why it looks un-proportional at most angles.

On the GRMN version, they added another mini vent for the non-functioning door vent. The TRD kit covers completely covers that fake vent.

Car designs are completed years before production so the GRMN was already in the pipeline, similar timeline to the G80 M3 as we're now seeing hit the dealerships. In typical BMW fashion, they want a sport version and then a more aggressive competition version.
 

Loco38SUP

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I’m not sure about sales figures but in my area I’ve seen at least 10 C8’s and only 2 MKV Supras on the road. And the C8 is all but impossible to get right now. The $1500 rebate definitely helped sales for March at least.

-RJM
 

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It's just a render. There's not really any solid information about this car or if it will even exist.
 

BrettS

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It's just a render. There's not really any solid information about this car or if it will even exist.
No but Bestcar was almost 100% right about the production car specs/render so they’re more believable than most of the other automotive media outlets
 

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Aside from the good news about the Supra GRMN what bothers me about this article is the continued suggestion that Toyota will just kill off the Supra altogether after the A90.... after they *just* brought it back. That would be pretty shortsighted if true.

There should be an A100 successor after we’ve celebrated the final model year of this generation.
More importantly, the Supra is said to be the last evolution of this GRMN specification.

It will be released in 2023 and will be discontinued in 2025 including the normal grade. There are no plans for the future, and Supra will finish its role.

In the future, sports cars with pure gasoline engines will disappear one after another.

Maybe I am reading away too much into this? 2025 and the party is over for Supra. It sounds like Toyota is insinuating this current Supra is the last of its kind. The last Supra model and the last ICE sports car from Toyota. The next Toyota sports car will probably be hybrid-electric or PHEV. Or possibly hydrogen-hybrid since it's no secret Toyota openly said they are investing in hydrogen.
 

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More importantly, the Supra is said to be the last evolution of this GRMN specification.

It will be released in 2023 and will be discontinued in 2025 including the normal grade. There are no plans for the future, and Supra will finish its role.

In the future, sports cars with pure gasoline engines will disappear one after another.

Maybe I am reading away too much into this? 2025 and the party is over for Supra. It sounds like Toyota is insinuating this current Supra is the last of its kind. The last Supra model and the last ICE sports car from Toyota. The next Toyota sports car will probably be hybrid-electric or PHEV. Or possibly hydrogen-hybrid since it's no secret Toyota openly said they are investing in hydrogen.
Yes, with the model year 2026 (in the year 2025) the entire Supra MKV line including the GRMN will end production.

It would be very shortsighted of Toyota to kill off the Supra altogether after just having brought it back from a nearly 20 year hiatus.

An A100 if made not long after the A90 ends production would be a hybrid.

Toyota will have an all-hybrid lineup at minimum from model year 2026 onward... except for any of the "legacy" models that are finishing out their production runs (according to A70TTR in a post many months ago).

The Supra MKV, 2nd Gen GT86/GR86 and Corolla GR/MN with the GR Yaris' drivetrain and the JDM Corolla Touring with the GR Yaris driveline and the GR Yaris will be their very last pure ICE sports models before things start changing. The Supra A90 will end in MY2026 but I'm not sure if the rest of those will have additional model years.

Those exceptions at the ends of their cycles aside it will be all PHEVs from model year 2026 onward. That doesn't mean there can't be fun performance PHEVs going forward. By 2035 all their models will need to be EVs in many markets (though maybe not in Japan yet by then if the current regulations there do not change).

In the longer term Toyota would be expected to offer some performance with both their solid state battery and hydrogen fuel cell tech which they have been pouring money into the R&D for.

Apparently the MR2 program was restarted with a new focus to design a full EV version in the $91k USD ballpark. Sounds like it will be a very high end high performance GT at that level of cost. Huge departure from the old affordable MR2's of the past.
 
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DesmoSD

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More importantly, the Supra is said to be the last evolution of this GRMN specification.

It will be released in 2023 and will be discontinued in 2025 including the normal grade. There are no plans for the future, and Supra will finish its role.

In the future, sports cars with pure gasoline engines will disappear one after another.

Maybe I am reading away too much into this? 2025 and the party is over for Supra. It sounds like Toyota is insinuating this current Supra is the last of its kind. The last Supra model and the last ICE sports car from Toyota. The next Toyota sports car will probably be hybrid-electric or PHEV. Or possibly hydrogen-hybrid since it's no secret Toyota openly said they are investing in hydrogen.
Exactly. Look what the EPA is trying to do.

 

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Yes, with the model year 2026 (in the year 2025) the entire Supra MKV line including the GRMN will end production.

It would be very shortsighted of Toyota to kill off the Supra altogether after just having brought it back from a nearly 20 year hiatus.

An A100 if made not long after the A90 ends production would be a hybrid.

Toyota will have an all-hybrid lineup at minimum from model year 2026 onward... except for any of the "legacy" models that are finishing out their production runs (according to A70TTR in a post many months ago).

The Supra MKV, 2nd Gen GT86/GR86 and Corolla GR/MN with the GR Yaris' drivetrain and the JDM Corolla Touring with the GR Yaris driveline and the GR Yaris will be their very last pure ICE sports models before things start changing. The Supra A90 will end in MY2026 but I'm not sure if the rest of those will have additional model years.

Those exceptions at the ends of their cycles aside it will be all PHEVs from model year 2026 onward. That doesn't mean there can't be fun performance PHEVs going forward. By 2035 all their models will need to be EVs in many markets (though maybe not in Japan yet by then if the current regulations there do not change).

In the longer term Toyota would be expected to offer some performance with both their solid state battery and hydrogen fuel cell tech which they have been pouring money into the R&D for.

Apparently the MR2 program was restarted with a new focus to design a full EV version in the $91k USD ballpark. Sounds like it will be a very high end high performance GT at that level of cost. Huge departure from the old affordable MR2's of the past.
Maybe I've missed a later update, but I think people misunderstood the big 2025 announcement years ago. The plan is for every vehicle in the lineup to have a hybrid or electric option available. There can still be a gas Supra, but a hybrid version would also be available.

The end is near regardless. Just not necessarily 2025. I'd expect them to lean heavily on the hybrid models and the vehicle will be developed around that, but you might still have the option if you don't want it.
 

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The fact that this is a possibility has me stopping at stage 2 on my car. If they land the s58 AND they get the '21 ECUs cracked it'll be tough for me to not want one...a lot of "ifs" there though.
 

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Same rehash info from BC.

https://bestcarweb.jp/feature/column/320948?prd=4

■ Toyota Supra GRMN (scheduled to appear in the spring of 2023)
● Equipped with a 520ps super powerful turbo engine!

A super-big game is also on standby in GR Supra, a representative model of Japanese sports cars. It is a special model of GRMN that has not appeared in the world yet.

The Supra, which received a large-scale improvement in October 2020, has a straight-six, 3L turbo RZ that has been powered up from 340ps to 387ps at once, but the GRMN specification claims 520ps.

This engine is a high-power version of the straight-six turbo that is installed in the BMW M3 / M4. The spec of M3 / M4 is 510ps, but Supra has been tuned independently, and it is said that it will be 520ps, which is 10ps up. The maximum torque is 67.0kgm, so it is intense.

The transmission combined with this engine is a 7-speed DCT. This will be Toyota's first twin clutch MT.

Of course, the suspension will also be improved in response to the significant power-ups.

Supra is actively participating in the race as a "running experimental site". In addition to the domestic Super Taikyu race, he also participated in the NĂŒrburgring 24-hour race and fed back the knowledge gained there to the commercial model. The GRMN specification will also be finished in a car that makes use of that know-how.

This GRMN specification will be the first and last special model of the Supra, and it is scheduled to end production in 2025 including the normal grade.

There are no plans for the next model, and this is the last Supra, a pure engine car. There is a high possibility that an improved model will appear in the next four years, but this GRMN specification is the only grade with an output of 520ps.

The debut is scheduled for spring 2023, and the price is likely to be around 12 to 13 million yen. Details are unknown, but it is highly likely that it will be a limited model, and a fierce competition is expected.

09_20210910_P007-028_Scoop-Sports_11.jpg

92_20210910_P007-028_Scoop-Sports_PPPP.jpg

GRMN specification that is equipped with a large GT wing and appears in the image of a martial arts group like a racing car. The engine has achieved 520ps / 67.0kgm by adding original tuning to BMW's straight-six 3L turbo. Due to the suspension trained in the race, it corresponds to this high power as FR (the image is the predicted CG by the best car editorial department)

◎ Supra GRMN
・
Overall length: 4410mm・ Overall width : 1900mm・ Overall
height: 1285mm
・ Wheelbase: 2470mm
・ Vehicle weight: 1580kg
・ Engine: Straight 6, 3L + turbo
・ Maximum output / maximum torque: 520ps / 67.0kgm
・ Motor maximum output: 13ps
・ Drive system: FR
・ Estimated release date: Spring 2023
・ Estimated price: 12 million to 13 million yen
 

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No manual transmission option ... who cares about a faster abomination?

And for 120k dollars ???

Does Toyota have any clue what enthusiasts actually want?


Same rehash info from BC.

https://bestcarweb.jp/feature/column/320948?prd=4

■ Toyota Supra GRMN (scheduled to appear in the spring of 2023)
● Equipped with a 520ps super powerful turbo engine!

A super-big game is also on standby in GR Supra, a representative model of Japanese sports cars. It is a special model of GRMN that has not appeared in the world yet.

The Supra, which received a large-scale improvement in October 2020, has a straight-six, 3L turbo RZ that has been powered up from 340ps to 387ps at once, but the GRMN specification claims 520ps.

This engine is a high-power version of the straight-six turbo that is installed in the BMW M3 / M4. The spec of M3 / M4 is 510ps, but Supra has been tuned independently, and it is said that it will be 520ps, which is 10ps up. The maximum torque is 67.0kgm, so it is intense.

The transmission combined with this engine is a 7-speed DCT. This will be Toyota's first twin clutch MT.

Of course, the suspension will also be improved in response to the significant power-ups.

Supra is actively participating in the race as a "running experimental site". In addition to the domestic Super Taikyu race, he also participated in the NĂŒrburgring 24-hour race and fed back the knowledge gained there to the commercial model. The GRMN specification will also be finished in a car that makes use of that know-how.

This GRMN specification will be the first and last special model of the Supra, and it is scheduled to end production in 2025 including the normal grade.

There are no plans for the next model, and this is the last Supra, a pure engine car. There is a high possibility that an improved model will appear in the next four years, but this GRMN specification is the only grade with an output of 520ps.

The debut is scheduled for spring 2023, and the price is likely to be around 12 to 13 million yen. Details are unknown, but it is highly likely that it will be a limited model, and a fierce competition is expected.

09_20210910_P007-028_Scoop-Sports_11.jpg

92_20210910_P007-028_Scoop-Sports_PPPP.jpg

GRMN specification that is equipped with a large GT wing and appears in the image of a martial arts group like a racing car. The engine has achieved 520ps / 67.0kgm by adding original tuning to BMW's straight-six 3L turbo. Due to the suspension trained in the race, it corresponds to this high power as FR (the image is the predicted CG by the best car editorial department)

◎ Supra GRMN
・
Overall length: 4410mm・ Overall width : 1900mm・ Overall
height: 1285mm
・ Wheelbase: 2470mm
・ Vehicle weight: 1580kg
・ Engine: Straight 6, 3L + turbo
・ Maximum output / maximum torque: 520ps / 67.0kgm
・ Motor maximum output: 13ps
・ Drive system: FR
・ Estimated release date: Spring 2023
・ Estimated price: 12 million to 13 million yen
Sponsored

 
 




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