Toyota "Preparing" Hotter Supra GRMN, Says Chief Engineer

justbake

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I still believe in Santa every year for Christmas
Someone has to have some imagination around here.

The current narrative is that Toyota revived their halo car after 20 years and launched a performance sub-brand just to put a performance tune on another company's mid-tier 6 cylinder motor, which doesn't even meet EU regulations. What about the other GR models you ask? One is rumored to be a Subaru motor from an SUV and the other is currently in the Yaris/Corolla. Yeah that's right, GR's sole in house motor is from the Yaris. But that's not so bad right since the GR Yaris has a bespoke chassis? Nope, the US won't be getting it, we will be getting the econobox chassis Corolla instead and it has been detuned.

As much as I want GR/GRMN to succeed, it is sounding like the joke of all performance trims, TRD, but rehashed.

Launching GRMN with the V35a (or whatever the new Dynamic Force engine is between the V35a and TT V8) in the Supra would be a surefire way to legitimize GRMN out of the gate.
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ayau

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Canā€™t just slap in V35A engine just like that. Thatā€™s not how car manufacturing works. It takes a lot of capital to shift to a different engine only to sell a few thousand cars.
 

justbake

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Canā€™t just slap in V35A engine just like that. Thatā€™s not how car manufacturing works. It takes a lot of capital to shift to a different engine only to sell a few thousand cars.

You misread or misinterpreted what I said. I never said switch to a different engine, I said add an additional engine to the lineup which is something CLAR is designed to handle. For example, GR Supra 2.0, GR Supra 3.0, and the additional GRMN Supra 3.5.

If youā€™re comment was even remotely accurate, then low volume performance variants such as the GS-F and LC-F wouldnā€™t exist at all.
 

justbake

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Well that's pretty strong evidence.
I should back up and change my statement from "won't have the V35a" to "can't have the V35a."

Although very unlikely, putting the V35a in the GRMN model is the fast track to legitimizing GRMN as a performance sub brand.
 

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Although very unlikely, putting the V35a in the GRMN model is the fast track to legitimizing GRMN as a performance sub brand.
I don't know what your obsession is with the V35A but this isn't the engine to put Toyota on the "performance" map. I would argue that the 2UR-GSE is a better sports engine. Just to keep things really simple for you, please review the rough specs of each engine below. Even as a "mid-tier" BMW engine, the B58D is substantially better than the V35A if viewed from a pure performance perspective.

V35A-FTS
416HP, 443 lb ft
85.5 x 100 mm -- very undersquare
6400 RPM redline
Open-deck with cast iron cylinder liners

B58D
Est. 450HP, 490 lb ft (based on dyno and 15% drivetrain loss, 380RWHP, 420RWTQ)
82 x 94.6 mm -- undersquare
7000 RPM redline
Closed-deck aluminum block
 

justbake

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I don't know what your obsession is with the V35A but this isn't the engine to put Toyota on the "performance" map. I would argue that the 2UR-GSE is a better sports engine. Just to keep things really simple for you, please review the rough specs of each engine below. Even as a "mid-tier" BMW engine, the B58D is substantially better than the V35A if viewed from a pure performance perspective.

V35A-FTS
416HP, 443 lb ft
85.5 x 100 mm -- very undersquare
6400 RPM redline
Open-deck with cast iron cylinder liners

B58D
Est. 450HP, 490 lb ft (based on dyno and 15% drivetrain loss, 380RWHP, 420RWTQ)
82 x 94.6 mm -- undersquare
7000 RPM redline
Closed-deck aluminum block
I have mentioned about a dozen times here how much better the B58 is for performance, especially with F heads.

But it never was and still isn't about raw engine performance, it is legitimizing GR/GRMN as their own performance brand. Also, raw engine performance doesn't address physics. The V35a puts more weight towards the back of the firewall (and probably entirely behind the front axle) where as the B58 has 2 cylinders high above the front wheels.

You also have the emissions issue. HP is one thing, but that figure is meaningless if it doesn't meet emissions standards in major markets.
 

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@A70TTR (an engineering liaison who works at Toyota) has all but confirmed the GRMN was codeveloped with the GT4 car, which is running a B58. The one thing about the GRMN that seems to be set in stone is that it will be running some form of BMW 58 series motor. It makes no sense to build a separate engine that doesnā€™t share any commonality with the current car.

As cool as it would be to have an all Toyota halo vehicle, this supra isnā€™t going to be that. The sooner everyone accepts that then you can really appreciate what the GR or GRMN is, that itā€™s a BMW finessed by Toyota and offered at a great price. If this comes close to competing with the Porsche gt4 and undercuts itā€™s price, then it doesnā€™t matter if it is a Toyota. For all I care, it could be a Volkswagen collaboration with Honda. A badge is a badge, and good engineering transcends a badge.

I thought I could wait for this but I couldnā€™t pass up 10k off a 2020 model. But once this comes out and itā€™s everything itā€™s been touted to be, I will be trading in my 2020 for it.
 

justbake

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There is a lot of things insiders say that don't come to fruition so they should all be taken with a grain of salt and that is just the nature of the business. Remember the CGI blocks? Remember when It was going to have a DCT? Remember when Tada San hinted at GR models receiving all new engines and not performance tunes of existing engines? Remember when it was said the platform was never intended on going over 400hp? But at the same time was also a high performance platform? But things change or take a back seat when it comes to delivering the best product at a certain target price.

I am fully content with the Supra not being Toyota's halo vehicle anymore, I have the utmost respect for this car and the development and engineering that went into this. But I do not see the business case for this enthusiast-driven performance brand when Toyota has been tone deaf to enthusiasts for nearly 20 years. I know Akio Toyoda wants to change that especially with the upcoming GR Yaris, GR86, GRMN Supra, and LC-F all in the pipeline within a relatively short time span, but part of me is still apprehensive. It appears as if Toyota is finally serious but it still seems as if they are always a step below their expectations. Even the GR Yaris with the GR4 AWD system was huge news, but it falls short since it isn't even coming to the US in its full form.

I guess I have a hard time seeing how a 394hp, 414hp, or 430hp Supra competes with a 414hp GT4 on the track, especially if the rumors are true about the GT4 with a PDK. The engineering side of me fails to see a front mounted inline 6 best a mid engined flat 6 on a race track, and instead goes to other solutions to mitigate these pitfalls. I know this project has been in works for a long time but not only is this Porsche, it is their GT lineup we are talking about. Porsche makes the best no-compromise sports cars out there. So in my mind a low mounted V engine is the best way to challenge the GT4 head to head, and it just so happens that Toyota has a newly developed twin turbo V6. It will be incredible if they make the B58 competitive with the GT4 and as enjoyable to drive especially in an inline 6 which is my personal favorite engine setup.
 

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There is a lot of things insiders say that don't come to fruition so they should all be taken with a grain of salt and that is just the nature of the business. Remember the CGI blocks? Remember when It was going to have a DCT? Remember when Tada San hinted at GR models receiving all new engines and not performance tunes of existing engines? Remember when it was said the platform was never intended on going over 400hp? But at the same time was also a high performance platform? But things change or take a back seat when it comes to delivering the best product at a certain target price.

I am fully content with the Supra not being Toyota's halo vehicle anymore, I have the utmost respect for this car and the development and engineering that went into this. But I do not see the business case for this enthusiast-driven performance brand when Toyota has been tone deaf to enthusiasts for nearly 20 years. I know Akio Toyoda wants to change that especially with the upcoming GR Yaris, GR86, GRMN Supra, and LC-F all in the pipeline within a relatively short time span, but part of me is still apprehensive. It appears as if Toyota is finally serious but it still seems as if they are always a step below their expectations. Even the GR Yaris with the GR4 AWD system was huge news, but it falls short since it isn't even coming to the US in its full form.

I guess I have a hard time seeing how a 394hp, 414hp, or 430hp Supra competes with a 414hp GT4 on the track, especially if the rumors are true about the GT4 with a PDK. The engineering side of me fails to see a front mounted inline 6 best a mid engined flat 6 on a race track, and instead goes to other solutions to mitigate these pitfalls. I know this project has been in works for a long time but not only is this Porsche, it is their GT lineup we are talking about. Porsche makes the best no-compromise sports cars out there. So in my mind a low mounted V engine is the best way to challenge the GT4 head to head, and it just so happens that Toyota has a newly developed twin turbo V6. It will be incredible if they make the B58 competitive with the GT4 and as enjoyable to drive especially in an inline 6 which is my personal favorite engine setup.
Toyota has an in house TTV6 that comes from the TS050, which is going to the GR Super Sport
 

justbake

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If the GRMN Supra is powered by GT4 Supra, will we have to wait until after the facelift for a front bumper that flows enough air?

27397.jpg
 

justbake

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Can anyone read Japanese? The new issue of Best Car Magazine supposedly has new GRMN information.

Based off the cover, it appears as if the car has a widebody which I did not think was possible considering a wider track breaks the "golden ratio" that Tada focused on during development. Obviously this is speculation but Best Car is usually pretty accurate.

Nevertheless, big brakes, carbon roof, different door piece, and wheels all look great. If that says 520hp on the cover, that would mean a higher output than the S58 (473hp and 503hp for comp models.) This would mean the GRMN Supra would undercut the upcoming M4 in power and would be presumably cheaper considering the Supra 3.0 is already ~$8k cheaper than the M440i. I am skeptical about that but we don't really know the terms of their partnership and how much hybrid/hydrogren tech was exchanged to warrant the Supra potentially out performing both future M4 and M2.

https://bestcarweb.jp/backnumber/159088

4f88a6eb045fc4e82b8e67889a3b3809-600x400.jpg
 
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Whoa.

By the time this comes out (IF it comes out), the A90 will be paid for. I sense a trade-in!
 
 




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