Featured 2020 Supra (A90) Reviews Compilation!

Discussion in 'General Supra Topics' started by JT, May 12, 2019.

  1. ichitaka05

    ichitaka05 Moderator
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    Not really sad. He’s looking at price & all the features comes in GTS. I think, S is more better comparison for Supra.

    I’m pretty sure Toyota will make GTS & GT4 killer down the road.
     
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  2. bogglo

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    I hope this is the begining of porsche vs toyota rivalry in this segment
     
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  3. ichitaka05

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  4. elpadrino

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  5. madweazl

    madweazl Well-Known Member

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    On May 17, Toyota Motor Corporation held a press conference for the new sports coupe "Supra" at MEGA WEB (MegaWeb) in Odaiba, Tokyo. [See another image of this article] The outline of the new Supra "Toyota, released a new 'Supra' was born in partnership with BMW. From 490 million yen," the design of the announcement meeting "'The essence of fan to drive I'm familiar with the new Toyota "Supra" presentation, but the predecessor Supra sold off in 2002, and the fifth generation, the new Supra, will be back in 17 years.  Therefore, Toyota will hold an event "Supra is back to Japan Fes" for fans waiting for the new Supra to be released in Japan on Megaweb for three days from May 17th to 19th. The letters "Supra is back." Were drawn on various places and staff T-shirts, and he celebrated the revival with Suprafan.  The new Supra is the first model created in partnership with BMW, and production will take place at the Graz plant in Magna Steyr in Austria. It is transported to Japan by sea after production, and is delivered to users via Toyota Motor Corporation's Motomachi plant.  On the day of the presentation, a group interview with Mr. Shigeki Tomoyama, Toyota Vice President and President of GAZOO Racing Company, was held. As I heard about the new model Supra and the tie-up with BMW, I will deliver the design. ■ What's good about partnering with BMW- Please tell us about the circumstances under which Mr. Tomoyama was told "Let's make Supra again" and your feelings at that time.On May 17, Toyota Motor Corporation held a press conference for the new sports coupe " Supra " at MEGA WEB (MegaWeb) in Odaiba, Tokyo. Supra is back to Japan Fes . The letters "Supra is back." Were drawn on various places and staff T-shirts, and he celebrated the revival with Suprafan. A group interview with Mr. Shigeki Tomoyama was held. As I heard about the new model Supra and the tie-up with BMW, I will deliver the design.


    Mr. Tomoyama: Well, in 2007, Morizo (Toyota President and CEO Akio Toyoda) participated in the Nurburgring 24 hour endurance race, but I had been training for driving about six years ago. . At that time, the master driver who met for the first time, Naruse (late Mr. Hiroshi Naruse), was told, "We are making a life and making a car. I do not want to tell someone who can not drive a car" I came to learn driving in Naruse.

     Among them, when I was trained in driving at the Nürburgring (President Toyoda) from Naruse, and when it was told that "the cars that can run here are only used supers in Toyota", probably Toyota is when he becomes president Promised to revive Supra with Naruse. Toyota became the president in 2009, and reached its first general meeting of shareholders on June 24, 2010. The day before, Naruse died in an accident during a test car test. Then there was a quality problem and the Great East Japan Earthquake, and it was not a revival of Supra. And in 2013, we made BMW a contract to revive Supra.

     It has been six years since then and today it is, but I think that revival of a car like Supra was not done at the time by Toyota at the point of bottom-up. After all, it was a project that started from the top down of the president, and I think that it was Naruse who was the master driver of those days that was most pleased with "Supra is back."

    ――This is Supra, but various manufacturers have been involved and presentation meetings have been done, but whether it was made as a mere sports car, or recently Toyota often uses the phrase "making friends," but that part Are you aiming for something as? Please tell me which side is your main focus.

    Mr. Tomoyama: The number of sports cars (sales) is limited, but the cost of development is enormous. I don't think it is something that only one company would do. I think that you have to do things such as sharing platforms and parts in many ways. However, when I decided to do this project with BMW in 2013, I think that I did not think there was a strategic idea of competition and coexistence like this. Anyway, we have to revive a good sports car, Supra. When putting out a sports car that can be proud of the world with six straight cylinders, Toyota still did not have enough know-how. We partnered with BMW on environmental technology in 2011, but while working with BMW, BMW's CEO or executives are driving on their own. The president, Toyota, witnessed that the meeting will start on the circuit, and signed a development contract for a sports car in 2013, saying, "Supura will do with BMW."

     Even so, it is unique to Supra that everyone can help while they can not spend money (at presentation meetings), and I think it is important to make friends with the aftermarket.

    ―― I think that there were various things when I formed Supra in partnership with BMW, but do you think that it was good?

    Mr. Tomoyama: I have learned so much over the past six years. Not only the sports car but also the ideal form of car making. Toyota says that planning and design are the responsibility of BMW designing, but it is not easy to develop a car. There is always conflict between them, and what we thought of as BMW in that is what kind of car we really want to make at the planning stage of car making, thorough understanding that what we want to put out the taste of Toyota I stuff it like that. For example, in the case of Toyota's plan, there is a market of 100,000 units a year, such as size or price, and so on, but BMW does not.

     When it becomes clear what kind of car you want to make, for example, you will need a body rigidity 2.5 times more than 86, which requires a wheelbase shorter than 86. We will simulate it thoroughly and put in such a car as it is before we get into so-called manufacturing. Although I just mentioned an example, I think that I learned a great deal not only how to make a sports car but also the process of making a car.

    --- Are there any points that were hit hard during development?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Please ask Mr. Tada, who was the chief engineer of the new model Supra (laughs). After all the culture seems to be different, so it seems that I hit quite a bit, but at first I heard that Tada wasn't the partner. It seems that it was really isolated. When I heard that Toyota would make Supra, Tada had been developing 86, but told Tada to go to Germany (bmw) and got it stuck. Under such circumstances, it is great to get something that Toyota's so-called engineering department doesn't have in car making.

    ■ Supra and Motor Sports
    ―― Please give the meaning of appealing in connection with motorsport, bearing the name of GR in this Supra.

    Mr. Tomoyama: When the development of Supra began in 2013, GAZOO Racing Company had not been done yet. GAZOO Racing Company was founded in 2017, but since 2007 GAZOO Racing has been doing its own activities. At that time, there was no GAZOO Racing Company, but something like GR Spirit started from there, and Supra is a car that GAZOO Racing made.

     GR, as I said, is not just a manufacturer but a racing company, and it is the essence of the idea that we will create a world-class sports car using the know-how gained in racing and trained people. It is located in So it is very important for the GR brand to show its presence in the race, so I have a good tool called Supra, so I would like to make various legends from now on, and already last year I made a manifesto at the WRC (FIA World Rally Championship). He won the Kucharás title and won the Le Mans 24-hour race at the WEC (FIA World Endurance Championship). The WRC will still be in the championship area in 2019, and the team title will be decided whether we can win two consecutive races in the Le Mans 24-hour race in June.

     In that sense, I think that the image that "Toyota is a motor sports company" has made a great impression on the world in the past two years. At the same time, the image obtained in motor sports, the behavior of the driver, and the behavior of the car are analyzed to analyze, for example, WRC now participates in 14 battles a year, but data etc. during one battle Analyze and analyze so that the car is not broken. It's almost like Toyota doing two years of development 14 times a year, and if you try to do this, engineers, drivers, and mechanics will not be in time if they analyze separately (for the next race) , Everyone is working together. These things have a major impact on GR vehicle development.

    ―― In this Supra, NASCAR (National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing), SUPER GT from 2020, and Nür 24 hour race and activity plan have been announced. Do you have plans to expand beyond that?

    Mr. Tomoyama: If you do too much, it will be thin, so I would like to put it on the All Japan Rally, customer motor sports, S resistance, etc.

    ―― I think that I will compete in Lexus in the SUPER GT until now, and will be Supra (Toyota) from next year, but will Lexus not have much image of motor sports in the future?I think I will compete in Lexus and become Supra (Toyota) from next year, but is Lexus not going to get much image of motor sports in the future?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Lexus was originally a luxury model, and participated in the SUPER GT (GT300) with RC F GT3 and participated in the Nur 24 hour race with LC500. Among them, there is a possibility that Lexus will also give sporty models using technology tuned by GR. It used to be called "TOYOTA Racing", "LEXUS Racing" and "GAZOO Racing", and it was integrated into GAZOO Racing in 2015, and it became a motor sports headquarters. Two years ago it became GAZOO Racing Company, the Motorsport Headquarters is the headquarters for motorsports activities only, and GAZOO Racing Company has the functions of vehicle development and sales.

    --- Lexus Kumayoshi will be seen in Japan next year? Supra Kuma can you do it?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Well, it's from now (laughs). It is the first time to make a car.

    ■ Is Supra cool? ――What is the relationship with the coupe concept "TOYOTA FT-1"?

    Mr. Tomoyama: I think that Akio Toyoda felt that he had to revive Supra once more from his promise with Naruse. So, when I was shown the FT-1 in the design examination conducted in the US, and asked the designer at that time, "This is what I put on the engine," he returned "It's a series 6 cylinder." Therefore I think that I thought probably to make the design of FT-1 a base of Supra.

    ―― Did the person who designed the FT-1 imagine Supra?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Yes, Supra is rather legendary as there is wild speed in the United States.

    --- So, did the (US) Carty Design Research do this Supra design?

    Mr. Tomoyama: That started from the beginning, and then it was the process that Japan took over and finished.

    ―― Is there a Company system that will expand the know-how acquired by motorsport to GR models as well as other commercial vehicles, as it is a Company system?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Yes. That is one of the important missions of GAZOO Racing, and it will extend the work style reform of making cars in the race field to other companies. The other companies are not racing. It is steadily beginning to make cars with so-called roads and people. The best example is that an engineer can get a certain level of car driving technology and can evaluate the car to some extent. Then, it is not only words and writing but also to understand what the evaluation driver is saying properly with the body, and so on.

     So, another company person came to our car making place and got a ride on the car together, and it was told to understand that "Oh, GAZOO Racing is making such a car" I'm doing that. I do it in the dirt and the circuit, but it takes time and effort so I made a test course like Nurburgring in Toyota City (old Shimoyama village).

    -The new Supra is said to have been seasoned at the Nürburgring, but how long was that period?

    Tomoyama: I probably did it for about a year. I still do it now. Because I will go to the Nur 24 hour race to say why now. Most of the races are based on commercial vehicles.

    ―― Looking at Toyota now, I think that it is compatible with a business such as MONET Technologies, which was jointly established with One Piece and Softbank, in a manner that contrasts quite well with One Piece and GR. I don't think which is more important as Yama's skin feeling, but how is it?

    Mr. Tomoyama: I am President of GAZOO Racing Company, President of Connected Company, and Vice President of Toyota Production System (TPS). These three areas are necessary for Toyota's transformation. think. It seems that what I'm doing is the opposite: GR actually trains the car, and Connected trains the soft part of the car. What I often say is that "the most advanced racing cars are the latest connected cars", and it is not the case that the two are in conflict.

     These three are considered to produce a synergy effect with each other, for example, it is assumed that Oita tanak turns at a bad road surface at 100 km / h or more. It turns well so that it doesn't hit using an accelerator and a brake as well as steering. This is because data is getting more and more connected by connected. Such data is important data to run more safely when looking at the behavior of the car's marginal zone and to avoid collision with obstacles. Now I'm fixing it with hardware, but in the future when it comes to automatic driving, such a technology will always be needed when the car panics and it will not even collide, and when we are going off obstacles You

     If you lose the grip of the car you are often said, "You will not run so fast," but if the road surface is frozen it will spin at 10km / h. It is important not only to make a good sports car, but also to make a safer and collision-free car, that you should grasp the behavior of such a limit area exactly.

    ―― Currently, the Company system is in place, and such a system is in place to streamline work, but does Toyota mean that it does not differ in such a direction when looking at the whole as a whole?

    Mr. Tomoyama: It does not differ. It won't differ, but it will be awful, for example, at the moment when I asked how to develop a car like I said now, on all companies (laughs). There is also something to drag from the past. So GAZOO Racing Company will be at the top of it. Two years ago, it was a feeling of "what are you guys doing", but it is gradually changing to "isn't this interesting?" And "is this necessary?" It's over when GAZOO Racing Company has become respected by other companies. If you don't try to make a car that creates a problem or causes friction, you have to do it.

    ―― During the Yaris WRC's presentation, Mr. Tomoyama said, "To participate in the WRC, I want to do model-based development properly," but is that also reflected in Supra?

    Mr. Tomoyama: In the case of model-based development and Supra, BMW has had a huge impact, but at WEC, it's just a game of data. The process of making use of such things in the development of commercial vehicles is finally starting to go on track with the "GR Super Sports Concept". I can not say when to announce it now (laughs).

     GAZOO Racing Company (model based development) is starting to enter. The reason is that there is nothing to drag in a very compact organization. The rest is that no one can go against the intense top-down of President Akio Toyoda (laughs).

    ―― It is said that President Toyota received a severe point without being recognized as Supra, but what kind of things were you concerned about at the end?

    Mr. Tomoyama: I know this is going to be a Nur 24 hour race, but it's more important to run a little longer than fast, so for that you can't stress the driver first. Don't get tired. This is referred to as driver-oriented or driver-initiative car making, but in any case the way of making cars until now was engineer-oriented, but it has changed since then. Akio Toyoda has run it in Nulu and asked, "Is this a long-running car or a fast-running car?" Actually it is good to have both, but once the driver gets tired, an accident will occur and you can run fast because you can run at ease first, run without fatigue. From that point of view, the first one was still not.

     And in October 2018, Morizo took the final model in the VLN Nürburgring Endurance Series, saying that it was OK for the first time, saying "I can say it is Supra."

    ―― I would like to ask you as the owner of 80 Supra, but where do you think "newest Supra is" in the new Supra?

    Mr. Tomoyama: It's difficult (laughs). It is not something that can be explained scientifically that it is equipped with an in-line six-cylinder engine or has a low center of gravity. But Supra is very good. I have packed the package thoroughly, and I would not come out with such a short wheelbase. The ground was very good, and I actually thought it was "cool" when I first saw 80 Supra. I thought, but riding on my own, I will become a very cool car as I play more and more.

     At the time of the presentation, I asked, "If you think it's cool, please be honest, please raise your hand" but I think it's not cool and it's not perfect in design. Such a place is felt even in the new model Supra, and I would like to make it my own and finish it myself. As a vehicle base, I think Toyota's cars are as wonderful as ever before.

    ■ Superior cooperation between Toyota and BMW is Supra--The new Supra is produced at the Graz plant in Magna Steyr, but having started receiving orders for 24 cars for production in 2019 is a decision to increase production Or did Japan's allocation increase?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Two-thirds of orders received in the upper grade, and Japan's monthly sales target is 220 units, but as soon as you start making reservations, it will be up to 1400 and 70% of the 1400 will be It was the "RZ" (6.9 million yen) of the in-line six-cylinder engine. "RZ" is not cheap and I thought about 30%, so a big gap was born there. So I canceled the order once.

     We are now in production adjustment, and about two thirds of them say so-called "grade change". One third is increased production. Our staff ran around.

    ――Heritage parts will be completely completed in the GR garage, or will they be brought into some factory?

    Mr. Tomoyama: Heritage parts can be attached by dealers, and they can be attached by yourself. However, since it is not so simple story and it reprints things which are rusted in the mold, it is not such one if it can be said that it can do the whole thing and advances what kind of parts will be reprinted while discussing with the owner well It's a schedule.

    ――You mentioned "propeller shaft" at the stage of the presentation. Is it okay to understand that the propeller shaft comes out first?

    Tomoyama: The first thing we're listening to is headlights. There are parts that are out after, so I would like to start with parts that are not.

    ―― I think that the limit of 24 units is quite small (about "RZ" which accepts the application for business negotiations by the limitation of May 17 to June 14), but what is the reason why it was narrowed down to that?

    Mr. Tomoyama: After all, the dedicated color "Matt Storm Gray Metallic" is a difficult, time-consuming color. So please pardon it with 24 (laughs).

    ―― From the core Supra fan, you hear, "Can you make it from BMW?" Do you have any messages for such people?

    Mr. Tomoyama: On the other hand, some people can buy it because it is made by BMW (laughs). This is not to say that it is made by Toyota or made by BMW, but if you think that the best collaboration that combines the good things of Toyota in the collaboration and the good things of BMW is the Supra.

    ――Is the official name "Toyota GR Supra" or "Toyota Supra"?

    Mr. Tomoyama: The car name in Japan is "Supra", and on marketing it is "GR Supra." If you go abroad, it will be "Toyota Supra" depending on the country. There are various relationships such as trademark registration, and in general, GR Supra.

    ―― Regarding orders, is it quicker if you buy four cylinders?

    Mr. Tomoyama: That's right. Even if you order the 6-cylinder model now, it will probably be delivered around January 2020.

    Car Watch, editorial department: Takashi Kobayashi
     
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  6. bogglo

    bogglo Well-Known Member

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    good read.sort of confirms what A70 said about gazoo being involved in the Lexus F cars.
     
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  7. ichitaka05

    ichitaka05 Moderator
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    https://motor-fan.jp/article/10007733

    Here’s an interesting article talking about golden ratio of Supra (1.55).

    Other sports car:
    Porsche 911 - 1.54
    Mercedes Benz SLC - 1.56
    Porsche 917 Cayman - 1.63
    Ferrari 488 GTB - 1.58
    Alfa Romeo 4C - 1.45
    370Z - 1.65

    Now, he talked about sedan/4 seater been 1.7
    GTR - 1.75
    GTI - 1.72
     
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  8. ichitaka05

    ichitaka05 Moderator
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    Here's a quick translation and notes

    Cayman S steering feel firm.
    Cayman S exhaust noise is louder than others. It’s a good thing, but bad thing as well.
    Cayman S feel fast through the corner, but some area/corners Supra feel faster.
    Even try to slide the Cayman S, can feel they’re trying to get traction.
    Cayman S’ rear stability is very high.
    Feel to make Cayman S fun through the corner, do require some driving skill… but at the same time, this makes Cayman S feel safe.

    M240i have different driving feel than Z4, of course.
    M240i movement is bigger than others.
    M240i engine feels nice.
    M240i does feel the roll through the corner, but from there it keep gripping through the corner.
    Overall M240i suspension is smooth and it’s the best part of M240i.
    M240i doesn’t have sharp steering feel as Supra.
    M240i still have the feeling of “upgrade” of 1 series.

    Supra exhaust noise is the best out of all.
    Higher RPM, Supra’s push is better than others.
    When you push the Supra to the limit, chassis rigidity help through the corner.
    Compare to Cayman S, Supra turn through the corner very nicely.
    If you’re type of driver who like to slide through the corner, Supra is the way to go.
     
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  9. spamthechan

    spamthechan Well-Known Member

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    #114 May 21, 2019
    Last edited: May 21, 2019


    Too bad it's Rory and not Catchpole reviewing it. Still a good watch :cool:
     
  10. Captain_Kirk

    Captain_Kirk Well-Known Member

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    For the Spanish speakers.





     
  11. mas921

    mas921 Well-Known Member

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    besting cayman's shouldn't be that hard for the A90.

    Caymans are light and mid-engined, hence awesome, but they are definitely not without flaws.

    Cayman's have MacPherson struts in the front AND the REAR.

    it's probably the weight difference and the fact that its mid-engined (polar moment of inertia at the center of the car vs towards the nose) that are giving the edge in handling, but that rear Macpherson is it's, very serious, Achilles heel.

    in the front, MacPherson struts can be done intelligently, rendering even better than a double wishbone's camber curve: long arms, big caster angle (i.e. heavy steering) and SAI angles tuned for very long front view sidearm (fvsa). While being significantly lighter than double wishbones (helping to achieve that 50/50 %)
    but in the rear...you have neither caster nor SAI, and with the engine there, perhaps the control arms length can't be all that long....

    Porsche knows this, that's why 911's have double wishbone in the rear. Even better, the 911 GT3/RS, Cup and RSR have 5-way rear multilink (...which is like the supra's configuration...).

    there is even an aftermarket conversion kit for the GT4, in the following graphs, the supra should behave like to the "OCD" or the 997 911 RSR given their rear multilink geometry.

    1.Camber Gain (rear cornering "grip"), Porsche tuned the fvsa very very well, but still not a real multilink.
    rear_camber_vs_ride_height.png

    2. Rear toe (general stability when cornering, especially when trail braking into a corner, since you need the rear geometry to "toe in" when it extends/rebounds to align the rear tires into the corner)...as you can see the rear MacPherson in the Caymans does exactly the opposite...
    rear_toe_vs_ride_height.png

    3. Most importantly the Rear Roll center migration (too complicated, but in layman's terms it's the inherent ability of the suspension geometry to resist "falling on its face")...
    rear_roll_angle_vs_roll_center_height.png
     
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  12. SpamSupra

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  13. Captain_Kirk

    Captain_Kirk Well-Known Member

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  14. SupraFiend

    SupraFiend Well-Known Member

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    Oh graphs and suspension nerd talk, my fav!

    Super Like.

    Just wanna say though, double wishbone in the front is still better. The advantage of a double wishbone setup, camber curve wise, is you can make it whatever you want. I disagree that an aggressively designed mac strut setup will net a better camber curve then an aggressively designed double wishbone setup (for sure there are plenty of examples of wishbone cars with less then ideal geometry out there) .Yes, at a static ride height (non adjustable), a mac strut if done right is pretty good. But that's where they fall apart on Japanese cars. Who leaves them at stock ride height? Once you adjust the ride height, lets just say for improving the cars track matters and not aesthetics, you have destroyed the camber curve completely, if not even introduced positive camber gains. Most cars with a good following have some parts you can buy to try and correct this, but it doesn't always work out. Just having double wishbones to start with is superior, often there is enough adjustment stock to correct a small drop, and there are always aftermarket fully adjustable arms that can get it all back. Toyota knows this, this is why the Supra went double wishbone up front in 1986 and never looked back. I mean, there's the mk5, but BMW obviously mandated the mac struts in it. I think German cars get away with mac struts in the front a little easier as they are often engineered with better wheel gaps and ride heights from the factory and a greater percentage of owners just leave them as is. The mk5 is definitely german and has a very german factory ride height (which is great), but its also supposed to be a Supra so people are going to mod the hell out of it and the mac struts are going to be a pain to deal with for people used to the last couple gens (or miatas, or hondas, or exotics, or corvettes, etc etc).
     
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  15. mas921

    mas921 Well-Known Member

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    don't you just love suspension graphs xD! tells you a lot about the handling without even touching the car, kinda like studying stars with the Hubble telescope LMAO!

    i totally agree with "aggressively designed mac strut setup will net a better camber curve then an aggressively designed double wishbone setup " 911's RSR's and Porsche 918 Spyder has double wishbones up front! Even HKS' 86 time attack build has a custom double wishbones up front.
    and it's totally correct about the lowering, that's exactly why pro drifters go for drop knuckles to get things back to sanity.

    double wishbones are fundamentally superior in camber gain, no question about that! and multilink is even better, since them wishbones are sliced in half and each half is tuned individually :p and then add the 5th arm for toe angle control.

    BUT!

    think of a "range" where the suspension geometry would go through in compression at a corner. double wishbone will always gain camber (given the upper arm is shorter than the lower one) MacStruts will gain camber until the angle between the shock and the control arm reaches 90 degrees. a tipping point after which they go into positive camber...

    So if a car rolls like 5-10 degrees, lets call this "roll range", if the Mac struts are designed in a way such that in that "roll range" it will always gain camber: you do not need the -heavy- double wishbone as you're getting the same net effect in that constrained/real-world "roll range".

    The double wishbone will gain camber in a much bigger range of course, that's why 4x4's employ them. But one might not need that roll range at all in a sports car. remember; double wishbones are heavier unsprung weight (worst con tbh), very expensive to design and maintenance, and needs much stiffer/heavier springs because of the decreased motion ratio, usually like ~60% vs ~97% for a mac strut.

    I suppose german's figured out several ways to maximize camber gain in the needed "roll range" of mac strut. Longer camber arms, which is a WRC trick,would make the control arm travel through a larger arc before getting to the 90-degree tipping point (rotate a short pen and long pen,the long pen will draw a "longer arc" with the same degrees of rotation). also, notice how the control arm ball joint is bent up where it connects to the knuckle in the supra, this will also make it harder to reach that tipping point, increasing the "roll range".

    More importantly, german cars usually have "heavy" steering; that springs back quickly. That's a result of larger Caster angle. Caster will gain camber as the wheels are turned, quite considerably so. It's not uncommon to have caster angles as big as 7,8 or even 9 degrees in german cars (vs ~5 degree's in the 86 and WRX's)

    and AFAIK, S2000's needs similar front static camber as E92's!

    No doubt double wishbones are fundamentally better than Mac struts; but the latter has been developed so much (FK8 Civic Type R!!!) it might be the better "balanced" option all things considered.



    ...
    And sorry for the thread hijack :p
     
    RyanGT3RS likes this.

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