Achieving 750WHP+ Without Port Injection - A Plug and Play Solution for 2020+ Supras

[Awad]

IIRC your primary problem with DI was Spool. No data products make it very difficult to tune.

Nostrum is much better

The main tables for the DI and the data was made by sameh using my car and my data once I switched tuners . He absolutely has a lot of knowledge but I agree spool is questionable

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[AJRMKV]

The main tables for the DI and the data was made by sameh using my car and my data once I switched tuners . He absolutely has a lot of knowledge but I agree spool is questionable

I have first hand experience with that unfortunately. My spool injectors didn't operate within the parameters of other batches of the same injectors, so my tuner couldnt get them to work. Ended up swapping for S58, and now Nostrum which is a very good company.

 

[Awad]

I have first hand experience with that unfortunately. My spool injectors didn't operate within the parameters of other batches of the same injectors, so my tuner couldnt get them to work. Ended up swapping for S58, and now Nostrum which is a very good company.

Checked them out , their products seems very solid I’ll probably purchase once these ones burn out a year or so currently upgrading aero and extra cooling

 

[ewwphil]

I stuck with DI as well with Dorch HPFP and S58 injectors. Stock LPFP on E50. Slowly increased boost but haven't dyno'd it yet. At 28 psi is feels very quick and was making enough power to slip the trans in 4th 5th 6th. Built transmission now on the way and will probably lower boost slightly to keep heat down as I use it for lapping and time attack. More money than PI but my philosophy for track is to keep this as simple as possible-less to go wrong

What turbo are you running?

 

[rottmore]

I just don’t like the idea of PI

you don't like idea of more atomization?

 

[razorlab]

you don't like idea of more atomization?

He does a charge back on atomization. Honestly, NOBODY should be listening to @Awad after what he has pulled.

 

[Rmak]

What turbo are you running?

DAW Ultra flow r

 

[alfi.mke]

Might be a dumb question, but how come when I look at the dorch hpfp power potential numbers, the WHP goes down with e85? Example, 93Oct: 850whp, E50: 720whp, E85: 620whp

 

[razorlab]

Might be a dumb question, but how come when I look at the dorch hpfp power potential numbers, the WHP goes down with e85? Example, 93Oct: 850whp, E50: 720whp, E85: 620whp

Ethanol creates more demand as it has less energy (but more knock resistance) compared to gasoline.

So the higher the ethanol percentage, the higher demand on flow from the system.

 

[alfi.mke]

Ethanol creates more demand as it has less energy (but more knock resistance) compared to gasoline.

So the higher the ethanol percentage, the higher demand on flow from the system.

I see, so what is the point of running e85 if you’re making less power on a DI system?

 

[i3igpete]

upgrading your fuel system essentially moves the red line up so the crossover sweet spot is higher.

 

[razorlab]

I see, so what is the point of running e85 if you’re making less power on a DI system?

The Dorch numbers are a little silly as the HPFP has zero issue keeping up up top with decent ethanol levels, which is where your peak horsepower will be. Next issue are the injectors.

If you are planning on making over 700whp and want to run full E85, then just go PI.

 

[Funkjaw]

I see, so what is the point of running e85 if you’re making less power on a DI system?

You'll need to think of it differently..

You aren't making less power - on the contrary at the same boost levels you are actually making more power on E85 vs Gasoline; but it requires ~25% more volume of fuel to do so (as Bryan pointed out). Because of this, if a fuel pump is flow limited to 850whp on 93, that means mathematically that same pump will be flow limited to 620whp on E85. (850 - ~25%)

I hope this makes sense - it's my day off so I'm drinking vodka and BBQing ribs and that's the best explanation I could come up with.

Oh also this picture might help. The first 3 dyno entries are gasoline, and the last 4 dyno entries are E85. Couple things I'll point out:

1. There is a substantial increase to both torque and horsepower when going to E85 from Gasoline at a near identical boost pressure. Meaning with proper tuning switching to E85 is a plug and play increase to power output.
2. The manifold temperatures are DRASTICALLY cooler on E85. This isn't something I see talked about often with E85 but the fuel temperature stays very cool compared to gasoline and is one of my favorite aspects of the fuel (living in Texas). Cooler fuel = lower air/manifold temps = more HP (especially in a boosted car). - NOTE lower intake manifold temperatures don't apply to the B58 found in our Supras but the temperature drop in fuel is still noteworthy as all things are thermally related in a car.

 

[razorlab]

You'll need to think of it differently..

You aren't making less power - on the contrary at the same boost levels you are actually making more power on E85 vs Gasoline; but it requires ~25% more volume of fuel to do so (as Bryan pointed out). Because of this, if a fuel pump is flow limited to 850whp on 93, that means mathematically that same pump will be flow limited to 620whp on E85. (850 - ~25%)

I hope this makes sense - it's my day off so I'm drinking vodka and BBQing ribs and that's the best explanation I could come up with.

Oh also this picture might help. The first 3 dyno entries are gasoline, and the last 4 dyno entries are E85. Couple things I'll point out:

1. There is a substantial increase to both torque and horsepower when going to E85 from Gasoline at a near identical boost pressure. Meaning with proper tuning switching to E85 is a plug and play increase to power output.
2. The manifold temperatures are DRASTICALLY cooler on E85. This isn't something I see talked about often with E85 but the fuel temperature stays very cool compared to gasoline and is one of my favorite aspects of the fuel (living in Texas). Cooler fuel = lower air/manifold temps = more HP (especially in a boosted car).

Intake manifold? Because that is not true on the B58 platform. DI is after the manifold.

 

[Funkjaw]

Intake manifold? Because that is not true on the B58 platform. DI is after the manifold.

Thanks B-man made a note to my original post.

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