tadda
Well-Known Member
I totally agree.... The bass gets muddy and distorted at those levels and I believe at this point it's a combination of needing better DSP Amp and more a robust woofer...
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30MilesOffshore
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2020
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- 2020 Supra
@tadda that was a good find, and is exactly why I was disappointed with the current setup on the Supra. I went directly from the BMW to Supra and the bass was like night and day. The OE BMW underseat subs out performed the A90 subs by leaps and bounds.
1) You mentioned "Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth." Do they have options for woofers? Non-HK vs HK?
2) The other thought was that the OE subs are 8-ohm. I wondered if the current A90 amp would be able to handle subs with a 4-ohm load? Did you come across that in any of your research?
3) How are the subs are currently wired? Series, Parallel, or Independent Channels?
1) You mentioned "Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth." Do they have options for woofers? Non-HK vs HK?
2) The other thought was that the OE subs are 8-ohm. I wondered if the current A90 amp would be able to handle subs with a 4-ohm load? Did you come across that in any of your research?
3) How are the subs are currently wired? Series, Parallel, or Independent Channels?
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tadda
Well-Known Member
@tadda that was a good find, and is exactly why I was disappointed with the current setup on the Supra. I went directly from the BMW to Supra and the bass was like night and day. The OE BMW underseat subs out performed the A90 subs by leaps and bounds.
I'm actually quite pleased with the performance of our OE HK subs but only after necessary modifications / changes were made to the enclosures along with some necessary EQ adjustments....
Here is the frequency response of my OE system with these changes made along with EQ adjustments...
1) You mentioned "Interesting to note is that the BMW OE "hifi" option (non-harmon kardon) sub had the highest sensitivity and widest bandwidth." Do they have options for woofers? Non-HK vs HK?
From what I've read and understand is that BMW offers a few audio upgrade options...The lower "HiFi" option has 2-ohm subs and the higher option "HK" audio package has 8 ohm subs...
2) The other thought was that the OE subs are 8-ohm. I wondered if the current A90 amp would be able to handle subs with a 4-ohm load? Did you come across that in any of your research?
I think 4 ohm would be a safe compromise, but I wouldn't go any lower impedance wise...
3) How are the subs are currently wired? Series, Parallel, or Independent Channels? Are you referring to the A90 or BMW?? The A90 has independent sub channels....
Last edited:
dazza
Well-Known Member
New to Supra and the forum, thanks to Tadda and the forum members. This is the most I have ever spent on a car and I was so disappointed that the Sound System rattled and vibrated when played at even low volumes.
I tackled the modifications but made some small changes that maybe helpful to other members who are tempted to do this.
I was very reluctant/nervous to cut into the panels, so I did something slightly different. I am a novice at this.
See pictures:
I removed the panel and the brackets behind the panel as well.
I placed sound deadening leaving holes for the screws in case I want to put the brackets back.
I put speaker wadding inside the metal enclosure but found it hard to place it like in Tadda's description against all four walls.
I also did not put any speaker grill like material behind the ports - I may go back and do this at a later stage.
I think if I was tempted to remove more panels I could have got to the woofer cover and lifted it and remove the woofers to place the speaker wadding, however I really did not want to start to pull the car apart, just for that purpose.
I had a piece of foam cut rectangular 50mm thick, 965mm long and 115mm wide. I cut two port holes 50mm using a wood circular hole saw.
Glued the ports in.
and shoved the foam in place it is snug.
I found the metal clips are noisy and creak, same as the speaker grills that secure with metal clips. So I noticed that they come apart from the mesh and simply covered the rim with velvet and secured the grill using screws and speaker clips (no drilling)
Now I can turn the volume full and there are no vibrations or rattles at all. the bass is very deep and low.
Everything can be returned to square one.
I used the remaining speaker wadding and shoved it into all the gaps under the carpeted speaker lid.
I plan on visiting a car audio shop to see if they have some nice 10inch speaker grills that will look better.
I tackled the modifications but made some small changes that maybe helpful to other members who are tempted to do this.
I was very reluctant/nervous to cut into the panels, so I did something slightly different. I am a novice at this.
See pictures:
I removed the panel and the brackets behind the panel as well.
I placed sound deadening leaving holes for the screws in case I want to put the brackets back.
I put speaker wadding inside the metal enclosure but found it hard to place it like in Tadda's description against all four walls.
I also did not put any speaker grill like material behind the ports - I may go back and do this at a later stage.
I think if I was tempted to remove more panels I could have got to the woofer cover and lifted it and remove the woofers to place the speaker wadding, however I really did not want to start to pull the car apart, just for that purpose.
I had a piece of foam cut rectangular 50mm thick, 965mm long and 115mm wide. I cut two port holes 50mm using a wood circular hole saw.
Glued the ports in.
and shoved the foam in place it is snug.
I found the metal clips are noisy and creak, same as the speaker grills that secure with metal clips. So I noticed that they come apart from the mesh and simply covered the rim with velvet and secured the grill using screws and speaker clips (no drilling)
Now I can turn the volume full and there are no vibrations or rattles at all. the bass is very deep and low.
Everything can be returned to square one.
I used the remaining speaker wadding and shoved it into all the gaps under the carpeted speaker lid.
I plan on visiting a car audio shop to see if they have some nice 10inch speaker grills that will look better.
dazza
Well-Known Member
I wish to add some further input and consideration on this.
After doing the above mod it cured the vibrations and the bass was much deeper, however after playing the system on some heavy bass tracks I noticed that the woofers were popping, this to me is a sign of being overpowered too much woofer excursion. If it distorted than I would believe it to be the amplifier not having enough juice to power the subs.
I did a further mod of lifting the entire sub enclosure and placing more foam, sound deadening and felt strips over the metal clips and putting the original panel back, sealed without ports.
Now that there are no ports the bass is tighter and more controlled not as deep but still pretty good. I have no vibrations at all and they can play louder without popping on the same heavy tracks.
I am not sure the port idea is correct for this setup?
I am no expert on audio or sound but that's my final thoughts and conclusions.
I have a Golf R with a Dynaaudio sound system and this JBL is nearly as good as that system, now that I have no rattles and vibrations.
I admit you have to really turn the volume up high to get decent output but it cranks pretty loud and clean.
My equaliser is now flat response and it sounds very good this way.
After doing the above mod it cured the vibrations and the bass was much deeper, however after playing the system on some heavy bass tracks I noticed that the woofers were popping, this to me is a sign of being overpowered too much woofer excursion. If it distorted than I would believe it to be the amplifier not having enough juice to power the subs.
I did a further mod of lifting the entire sub enclosure and placing more foam, sound deadening and felt strips over the metal clips and putting the original panel back, sealed without ports.
Now that there are no ports the bass is tighter and more controlled not as deep but still pretty good. I have no vibrations at all and they can play louder without popping on the same heavy tracks.
I am not sure the port idea is correct for this setup?
I am no expert on audio or sound but that's my final thoughts and conclusions.
I have a Golf R with a Dynaaudio sound system and this JBL is nearly as good as that system, now that I have no rattles and vibrations.
I admit you have to really turn the volume up high to get decent output but it cranks pretty loud and clean.
My equaliser is now flat response and it sounds very good this way.
tadda
Well-Known Member
@dazza
I enjoy listening to EDM that has very deep bass tracks at a volume around 2/3 with subwoofer cover modifications made and I haven't experienced any popping issues or over excursion of woofers ...Below 2/3 volume the bass in my setup is deep and punchy with little distortion and no vibrations to speak of...
Here are my current audio settings:
I saw what you had done originally and aside from some deviations you've made from what I had outlined here in How to Improve OE Subwoofer Quality and Eliminate Vibrations which most likely caused some additional vibrations and distortions (which I go through below), I also believe what you may be experiencing (as a few of us have discovered) is that the OE Amplifier itself starts distorting bass response at roughly 2/3 volume....At this point the Amp is unfortunately the weakest link which becomes even more apparent after eliminating all the other vibrations which allowed for the raising of volume even further...
That said, I'd like to clarify that even with the rear cover installed (without exhaust ports added) the OE woofer enclosures are still a ported setup...As I've mentioned a few times, placing a panel directly over these elongated ports (shown below) was a poor design decision by Toyota and the primary root cause of all the distortions and vibrations...
=======================================
Aside from this I did notice a few issues with the setup you chose to modify from what I had outlined and have added a few suggestions as to how to correct them which I hope you find helpful...
1) With the removal of the center bracket (shown below) that you decided to remove in your setup you also eliminated a key mount point of the center top cover which holds it down securely against the 8 subwoofer enclosure clips...
Without this mounting point secured the top cover will vibrate particularly around the 8 mounting clips (#2) under the top cover that secure the woofer enclosures tightly against the top cover as shown in the shop drawing below....
2) You really didn't need to replace the OE grill covers to stop them from vibrating...The issue here again is not the mounting clips around the 12 spoked grill covers but moreso with the upper spoked cover vibrating against the lower grill plate...securing them together with drops of RTV (red dots shown below) eliminated any vibrations there...
3) Make sure that the speaker wadding you added to the enclosure interior sits flat against the walls and not wadded up into the space or you will create more distortions...If this is a problem to do then simply remove the wadding all together...
4) Have you disabled Active Sound Design (ASD) which injects a engine noise overlay signal onto the audio signal channels and creates quite a bit of distortion and muddies bass response....
I enjoy listening to EDM that has very deep bass tracks at a volume around 2/3 with subwoofer cover modifications made and I haven't experienced any popping issues or over excursion of woofers ...Below 2/3 volume the bass in my setup is deep and punchy with little distortion and no vibrations to speak of...
Here are my current audio settings:
- ASD / Active Sound Design (off - using Bimmercode)
- Surround (off)
- Speed Volume (0)
- Balance: (0)
- Fade: (front +2)
- Broad Bass (+2)
- Broad Treble (-2)
- Equalizer (shown below)
I saw what you had done originally and aside from some deviations you've made from what I had outlined here in How to Improve OE Subwoofer Quality and Eliminate Vibrations which most likely caused some additional vibrations and distortions (which I go through below), I also believe what you may be experiencing (as a few of us have discovered) is that the OE Amplifier itself starts distorting bass response at roughly 2/3 volume....At this point the Amp is unfortunately the weakest link which becomes even more apparent after eliminating all the other vibrations which allowed for the raising of volume even further...
That said, I'd like to clarify that even with the rear cover installed (without exhaust ports added) the OE woofer enclosures are still a ported setup...As I've mentioned a few times, placing a panel directly over these elongated ports (shown below) was a poor design decision by Toyota and the primary root cause of all the distortions and vibrations...
=======================================
Aside from this I did notice a few issues with the setup you chose to modify from what I had outlined and have added a few suggestions as to how to correct them which I hope you find helpful...
1) With the removal of the center bracket (shown below) that you decided to remove in your setup you also eliminated a key mount point of the center top cover which holds it down securely against the 8 subwoofer enclosure clips...
Without this mounting point secured the top cover will vibrate particularly around the 8 mounting clips (#2) under the top cover that secure the woofer enclosures tightly against the top cover as shown in the shop drawing below....
2) You really didn't need to replace the OE grill covers to stop them from vibrating...The issue here again is not the mounting clips around the 12 spoked grill covers but moreso with the upper spoked cover vibrating against the lower grill plate...securing them together with drops of RTV (red dots shown below) eliminated any vibrations there...
3) Make sure that the speaker wadding you added to the enclosure interior sits flat against the walls and not wadded up into the space or you will create more distortions...If this is a problem to do then simply remove the wadding all together...
4) Have you disabled Active Sound Design (ASD) which injects a engine noise overlay signal onto the audio signal channels and creates quite a bit of distortion and muddies bass response....
Last edited:
dazza
Well-Known Member
Thanks Tadda,@dazza
I enjoy listening to EDM that has very deep bass tracks at a volume around 2/3 with subwoofer cover modifications made and I haven't experienced any popping issues or over excursion of woofers ...Below 2/3 volume the bass in my setup is deep and punchy with little distortion and no vibrations to speak of...
Here are my current audio settings:
- ASD / Active Sound Design (off - using Bimmercode)
- Surround (off)
- Speed Volume (0)
- Balance: (0)
- Fade: (front +2)
- Broad Bass (+2)
- Broad Treble (-2)
- Equalizer (shown below)
I saw what you had done originally and aside from some deviations you've made from what I had outlined here in How to Improve OE Subwoofer Quality and Eliminate Vibrations which most likely caused some additional vibrations and distortions (which I go through below), I also believe what you may be experiencing (as a few of us have discovered) is that the OE Amplifier itself starts distorting bass response at roughly 2/3 volume....At this point the Amp is unfortunately the weakest link which becomes even more apparent after eliminating all the other vibrations which allowed for the raising of volume even further...
That said, I'd like to clarify that even with the rear cover installed (without exhaust ports added) the OE woofer enclosures are still a ported setup...As I've mentioned a few times, placing a panel directly over these elongated ports (shown below) was a poor design decision by Toyota and the primary root cause of all the distortions and vibrations...
=======================================
Aside from this I did notice a few issues with the setup you chose to modify from what I had outlined and have added a few suggestions as to how to correct them which I hope you find helpful...
1) With the removal of the center bracket (shown below) that you decided to remove in your setup you also eliminated a key mount point of the center top cover which holds it down securely against the 8 subwoofer enclosure clips...
Without this mounting point secured the top cover will vibrate particularly around the 8 mounting clips (#2) under the top cover that secure the woofer enclosures tightly against the top cover as shown in the shop drawing below....
2) You really didn't need to replace the OE grill covers to stop them from vibrating...The issue here again is not the mounting clips around the 12 spoked grill covers but moreso with the upper spoked cover vibrating against the lower grill plate...securing them together with drops of RTV (red dots shown below) eliminated any vibrations there...
3) Make sure that the speaker wadding you added to the enclosure interior sits flat against the walls and not wadded up into the space or you will create more distortions...If this is a problem to do then simply remove the wadding all together...
4) Have you disabled Active Sound Design (ASD) which injects a engine noise overlay signal onto the audio signal channels and creates quite a bit of distortion and muddies bass response....
I remounted the original speaker grills but placed felt between the plastic rings and yes I now have zero vibration there. The design looks cheap.
Your point about the wadding is interesting I don't feel like pulling everything apart again to get this wadding to lie flat against the walls as its impossible to do this from the front ports.
So perhaps the thumping which I thought was excursion was actually the top section moving due to not having that central support clip?
Now that everything is back together in its original form but with foam, felt and sound deadening everywhere the whole area is solid enough and vibration free with the original slim panel without ventilation and its works perfectly.
In regards to the ASD I have not disabled this yet? does it really make a big difference? I have the Aussie version of the Supra and the exhaust is almost as quiet as a Toyota Camry. I can barely hear the ASD? I am about to fit a AWE exhaust system however I am not sure the ASD is even effective or barely audible?
dazza
Well-Known Member
Ok Tadda, I think you have some solid points and it makes sense. I am going to think about a new panel out of timber with ports as I am still reluctant to cut into my OEM panel.
Keeping all the brackets in place for structural integrity.
Perhaps use some stiff wire to manipulate the wadding in place to avoid taking that top section off again.
In regards to the ASD. I read somewhere that the disabling it in Bimmercode is easy to do but it cannot be reversed without reversing all the coding I have already done to the car? My issue is that my exhaust is still 5 weeks away from being installed and if I turn this ASD off the engine is going to sound awful (despite being fake noise anyway) Is it true that you cannot simply reverse that single setting in Bimmercode just to try it out?
I also read that you can unplug the ASD module(in the trunk - your post) and it does not throw any CEL codes but this requires me to remove more panels in the car which are held down by trunk clamps which I am more reluctant to do.
May I ask does ASD make such a difference to the engine note or is it so subtle and barely audible it wasnt worth Toyota adding it in the first place?
Keeping all the brackets in place for structural integrity.
Perhaps use some stiff wire to manipulate the wadding in place to avoid taking that top section off again.
In regards to the ASD. I read somewhere that the disabling it in Bimmercode is easy to do but it cannot be reversed without reversing all the coding I have already done to the car? My issue is that my exhaust is still 5 weeks away from being installed and if I turn this ASD off the engine is going to sound awful (despite being fake noise anyway) Is it true that you cannot simply reverse that single setting in Bimmercode just to try it out?
I also read that you can unplug the ASD module(in the trunk - your post) and it does not throw any CEL codes but this requires me to remove more panels in the car which are held down by trunk clamps which I am more reluctant to do.
May I ask does ASD make such a difference to the engine note or is it so subtle and barely audible it wasnt worth Toyota adding it in the first place?
tadda
Well-Known Member
ASD isn't connected to your exhaust system and does not change external exhaust sound in any way...ASD is simply an electrical sound generator which overlays a faux engine sound on top of the audio signal inside the cabin...
Those of us that have removed ASD have noticed a significant improvement in audio clarity...
dazza
Well-Known Member
Thanks, yes I was aware of the ASD function I guess I was asking if it made a difference to the sound in the cabin (Fake Engine Noise) was the cabin a lot quieter after disabling it?
I understand that it improves the Audio quality but putting the Audio sound quality aside is the car in general a lot quieter. As I have tried to listen for it and perhaps think its heard very subtly at idle as a low hum sound but unlike the fake noise generator in my Golf R which adds a tremendous amount of noise to the cabin with its Soundaktor device which gets louder as I rev.
Thanks
I understand that it improves the Audio quality but putting the Audio sound quality aside is the car in general a lot quieter. As I have tried to listen for it and perhaps think its heard very subtly at idle as a low hum sound but unlike the fake noise generator in my Golf R which adds a tremendous amount of noise to the cabin with its Soundaktor device which gets louder as I rev.
Thanks
H2O_Doc
Well-Known Member
I was stunned by how crappy the rear speakers are. My M240i is similar, meh in the front and bad in the back and just by dropping JLs in the back (no lectures on sound stage, please) the sound was significantly improved.
The Supra is similar but more extreme. The fronts aren’t great, but passable, but the rears are holy crap WTF. So, I’m thinking of replacing the rears and calling it a day (apart from the sub I am putting in). My thoughts are to skip the components and just get a coaxial as the main and tweeter are so close together anyway. I’m thinking Focal RCX-100s. Sound good and reasonably priced. Anyone know that they wouldn’t fit? Any other suggestions for a coaxial under $200? I have a strong preference for not adding an amp or a bunch of work. My tastes lean toward warmer sounding speakers.
The Supra is similar but more extreme. The fronts aren’t great, but passable, but the rears are holy crap WTF. So, I’m thinking of replacing the rears and calling it a day (apart from the sub I am putting in). My thoughts are to skip the components and just get a coaxial as the main and tweeter are so close together anyway. I’m thinking Focal RCX-100s. Sound good and reasonably priced. Anyone know that they wouldn’t fit? Any other suggestions for a coaxial under $200? I have a strong preference for not adding an amp or a bunch of work. My tastes lean toward warmer sounding speakers.
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