C&D: Supra vs Z vs M240 vs Mach 1

[Rocksandblues]

At the end of the day you pass and see so many Mustangs on the roads they all blend together and are unremarkable.

The only difference to me is how loud they are and at the track some i pass in one lap, some take 2 laps.

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[MLG Tofu Shop]

The fact that the Z is worse than the Supra just disproves the whole mentality of "New Supra would've been better if it was 100% Toyota / Japanese / Nice BMW bro"

People need to throw away their perception of all Japanese car brands = good cars, as of now only just 2 Japanese car manufacturers still actually makes good cars and Nissan definitely isn't one of them.

 

[BA9092]

Not to thrash on the Mustang, but I think Ford slipped a Franklin under the table to C&D.

While it's hard to argue against facts like powertrain and chassis, having a single professional auto-journalist driver test each car - Harris, Eaton, Collins, Pobst, Clarkson... would've probably led to a less biased review. Then let them assess the tire debacle - "if these tires were on that car and those tires were on this car..." - to see if the needles would've swayed differently.

With the likes of the RX-7 and 3000GT gone and the NSX pushed into the 3-digit price range, the new Z is the closest true adversary to the Supra. The BMW is too close to the Supra for a comparison, even with winning 7 points for rear seat space and comfort - the only one in the group. A better contender would've been the Cayman, as pricey as it is in base form, which was the "benchmark" for the MKV to begin with.

I don't understand how the M240i got 10 in features and amenities while the Supra only got 4? With the heated steering wheel aside, they're practically the same car inside. The Supra only had the DAP as an added option while the BMW had $10k over it's base price in additions! Really?

Lastly, exterior styling is subjective.

Mustang = 9
Supra = 5
BMW = 7
Z = 8

Really!?

Yes, the Mach1 looks great - for a Mustang. However, it's still just different body cladding, lips, wings and wheels that differentiate Mustangs visually. It's a tasteful and conservative design, but not something that stands out enough to merit the points.

The Z isn't as revolutionary as Z's past. The rear is very understated and they played it quite safe with side profile as well. The front is still a love/hate among car enthusiasts though.

The BMW of course looks like just any BMW. Not to say that it's a bad thing, but it's traditionally evolutionary in design. (I looked at the M240i before buying my Supra, but it didn't look special enough to warrant the price.)

As controversial as it is, I still think the Supra should've won - especially to the Mustang. At least in styling. It breaks more necks - even more than the other three combined!

 

[saik]

The fact that the Z is worse than the Supra just disproves the whole mentality of "New Supra would've been better if it was 100% Toyota / Japanese / Nice BMW bro"

Had a guy comment that the Z is at least "All Nissan" until I mentioned the Merc transmission. It's been an interesting arc seeing all the excuses melt down into "at least it's cheaper"

 

[CSUfiend]

I think we are in agreement that these are not family sedans or crossovers, and comparing them is a lot more subjective because of the differences between them.

1. The Pony cars (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger) were made to compete head to head.
2. The Japanese sports cars (Supra, Z) were obviously made to compete head to head.
3. The European sports cars (Cayman, M2, etc) are different from one another, but essentially compete for that buyer that is looking for a more prestigious branding/badge.

Anytime you take something from those 3 categories and compare them to one another, it starts to get more subjective. There’s an obvious difference in driving dynamics and feel when it comes to those categories.

• Some of these categories have mid engine designs.
• Some of these categories have 4,000lbs. behemoths.
• Some of these have cars are shared engineering efforts, thus, arguably creating more blurred lines.

It comes down to taste when you try to compare something outside of those categories. For example, if I’m more partial towards a European car, I’m favoring the European cars. If I’m more towards the Pony cars, same thing applies.

However, it is very appropriate to compare those cars within their categories. It is here within their categories (because they have been designed to go head to head with one another for the same buyer) that it’s more like comparing a Camry and a Accord

 

[Schang105]

If my recollection serves from an interview someone at Jalopnik did with Chief Engineer Tada-san, Toyota intentionally tried to keep the retail price of the Supra to be just slightly cheaper than a 718 Cayman S.

 

[White Shadow]

Lots of bias here, but I guess that's to be expected in a Supra forum. Bottom line to me is that the Mach 1 is a great looking car that offers excellent all-around performance in a true GT package with an unmatched exhaust sound. I'd be just as happy in one of those as I'd be in any of the other cars. Probably more even....

 

[Sub-MkV]

I'm of the belief that if Toyota had build a 100% Supra it would either be worse or better than our cars depending on their approach.

Approach # 1 (The Parts Bin Approach) which is to used a Lexus platform and a Lexus V6/V8 which would yield a heavier car by hundreds with a motor that doesn't have easy potential for cheap power. It would essentially be a Lexus RCF(4000+ lbs/470hp N/A) with a different body design(think Lexus SC300 vs Mk4). This approach would probably cost 50k but would most likely be a horrible car by comparison and more GT like than Mk5.


Approach #2(The build from the ground up Approach) which would be to build a whole new platform that's light and best suited for a RWD sporting vehicle($$$) that can handle power and to build a new I6T motor called the 3JZ($$$$$) with forged internals and close deck. It would have the option of a well designed 6 spd manual or a 8 spd DCT, aluminum wishbone suspension with Brembo's standard all around and at least Lexus level interior refinements. This car may have been better than our car but it would cost about 80-100K and many would say

"its way overpriced, Id rather a Porsche/Lotus/C8 Z06 etc"



The 2023 Nissan Z took the first approach above and yet most critics prefer our Supra which proves the point I've been pushing since 2020 that the Mk5 Supra represents the "Goldilocks" middle ground approach which is the most rational.

 

[CSUfiend]

Lots of bias here, but I guess that's to be expected in a Supra forum. Bottom line to me is that the Mach 1 is a great looking car that offers excellent all-around performance in a true GT package with an unmatched exhaust sound. I'd be just as happy in one of those as I'd be in any of the other cars. Probably more even....

I definitely see and take your point, but I think the reactions are natural. If we were on a FoMoCo forum or a Mustang specific forum, the Mustang would have a 90% favorable rating compared to the Supra or any other car in the comparison as well. If you go to a BMW forum, they’re probably saying that their car was the best one as well.

 

[romanLegion9574]

1. The Pony cars (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger) were made to compete head to head.
2. The Japanese sports cars (Supra, Z) were obviously made to compete head to head.
3. The European sports cars (Cayman, M2, etc) are different from one another, but essentially compete for that buyer that is looking for a more prestigious branding/badge.

It seems more like two groups.
The pony cars: (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, and the Z as a Japanese pony car)
The sports cars: (Supra, Cayman, M2)

 

[pandaman]

...

Approach #2(The build from the ground up Approach) which would be to build a whole new platform that's light and best suited for a RWD sporting vehicle($$$) that can handle power and to build a new I6T motor called the 3JZ($$$$$) with forged internals and close deck. It would have the option of a well designed 6 spd manual or a 8 spd DCT, aluminum wishbone suspension with Brembo's standard all around and at least Lexus level interior refinements. This car may have been better than our car but it would cost about 80-100K and many would say

"its way overpriced, Id rather a Porsche/Lotus/C8 Z06 etc"

Yep, the original MKIV Supra Turbo with options in today's dollars would be around $80-100k. And people are out here complaining that the Z is too much even at its base price. Nostalgia is getting the best of people. I was a teen back when the MKIV was released. It was like seeing a unicorn if you spotted one. They had a hard time selling them.

 

[White Shadow]

I definitely see and take your point, but I think the reactions are natural. If we were on a FoMoCo forum or a Mustang specific forum, the Mustang would have a 90% favorable rating compared to the Supra or any other car in the comparison as well. If you go to a BMW forum, they’re probably saying that their car was the best one as well.

Exactly. That's why I mentioned that it was to be expected. Personally, I don't have a dog in the fight because I don't currently own any of those vehicles. That said, I think the test results were fair. I'd like to see another similar test where all cars have either manual or automatic transmissions. Then again, the BMW doesn't offer a manual, so I guess it that's not possible on the manual side.

 

[CSUfiend]

Exactly. That's why I mentioned that it was to be expected. Personally, I don't have a dog in the fight because I don't currently own any of those vehicles. That said, I think the test results were fair. I'd like to see another similar test where all cars have either manual or automatic transmissions. Then again, the BMW doesn't offer a manual, so I guess it that's not possible on the manual side.

I would only disagree with the fair part when the cars were judged on styling. I feel like these days, styling is so subjective that If I said this car was pretty, or this car was ugly, those are subjective statements because there’s no quantifier as to why one was ugly and one was pretty.

For all we know, I could be using that visage to hide other feelings/biases that I have for or against a car, but that would obviously be too easy to be picked apart by others.

So in the end, I can just say something is too ugly, and the other object is a marvel for beautiful timeless styling.. and no one could theoretically pick that apart because again, there’s no exact quantifier for what they means to each individual person.

I always win every argument if I say that this car looks better than the other one. Why? Because they don’t know what my criteria is for looks! Unless they are able to read my mind and see my criteria, they can only establish their own criteria, so it’s an argument that I can’t lose due to the fact that it’s 100% subjective.

 

[White Shadow]

I think the Mustang looks great. I also like the styling of the Supra. I'm not a fan at all of the styling of the other two cars.

 

[Cptnslo]

Saw his latest video. I’m normally a fan of his stuff but this felt like a “I’m gunna throw shade at the Supra without mentioning which vehicle I’m referencing”

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