Therealist
Well-Known Member
They don’t. Most people simply don’t want to list every single reason, every single time. At the end of the day the core reason it sucks is because of this relationship. If they never had this relationship then we’d either have something closer to the FT1 or no new supra at all. Both are better options than what is on offer.
The B58 is a trash BMW engine. I hold my hands up and have no idea what modifications Toyota suggested but i doubt that’s going to be enough to qualify it as reliable.
The transmission is ok but most wanted a manual so there’s that.
The exterior is ok but not as good as it could have been due to the constraints of the Z4 chassis.
The suspension is BMW parts bin
The interior is also parts bin and hideous.
The price for all this is bad value. In whatever country you’re in there are cheaper, faster alternatives.
The previous generation was cheaper and outperformed more expensive competition. The new one fails on this front.
Anyone comparing this to the last generation in terms of spec are living in a dream world. Of course it should be better, it’s 25 years on, however it should be a lot better than this.
Supra21
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Threads
- 3
- Messages
- 254
- Reaction score
- 716
- Location
- Coral Springs, Florida
- Car(s)
- 2013 Mercedes Benz C250
Hold the phone! The B58 is a shit engine?! I'm curious now...what're the problems you've seen????
Or are you pointing to BMW's history of being unreliable?! Hmmmm...if we're talking about companies, do you remember when Toyota's brakes would fail?! They were really living up to their slogan of "Moving Forward"! No one said shit about stopping!...
Or are you talking about BMW's N series motor (which btw is not a B58) or there S series motor which has been sorted?!
Maybe you're skipping the bit of the B58 coming into existence only after Toyota began its work with BMW! You're a "realist"...why don't you look at the facts regarding the ENGINEERING behind the B58. It's more 2J "Toyota" than it is N/S "BMW". Do you honestly believe there's no Toyota influence in the design of this motor?! Sure it's now used in a range of BMW's, but do you also think it's because they think this motor is garbage?! Of course not!
Toyota started working with BMW in 2012 at which point, the standard BMW motor was the N-Series motor...try to ponder on why 3 years later, a revamped B58 came into existence! TOYOTA HAD INPUT!
Therealist
Well-Known Member
Ok focusing on just the engine. Toyota didn’t have that many changes made. Yes it’s closed deck but there are still many many issues reported across forums of B58 coolant loss and turbo failure. If Toyota improved the manifold design then well done to them but I doubt it’s solved every reliability issue with that engine. If Toyota didn’t doubt the reliability of the engine then it would have 380hp+ Like the Z4 is going to have!
Bryster
Well-Known Member
- First Name
- Bryan
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2018
- Threads
- 71
- Messages
- 1,655
- Reaction score
- 1,696
- Location
- Los Angeles
- Car(s)
- Nothing,considering a Civic DX
The latest iteration of the ZF8 is in your eyes...OK?!
Therealist
Well-Known Member
Well yea, it’s not amazing but it’s not bad either. The version in the supra lacks tuning potential as it’s rated to 500nm I believe.
A manual is obviously preferred
MA617M
Well-Known Member
How many times does it have to be said. It's not a Z4 chassis. It's equally Z4 as it is supra. Joint development of a new platform.
It just so happens it's manufactured in Austria.
But who fucken cares where shit is made, it's the brains and design that is what counts.
Any plant can make something from a datapack.
It just so happens it's manufactured in Austria.
But who fucken cares where shit is made, it's the brains and design that is what counts.
Any plant can make something from a datapack.
Therealist
Well-Known Member
Where’s the proof that Toyota had any input on the chassis? It’s all BMW. BMW suspension, bmw active differential. BMW linkaging. There is no evidence at all that Toyota had any input into the chassis development.
Edit: to keep this on topic, for all the reasons stated so far I can actually understand why people would petition to removed the supra name. There is no innovation that the brand is known for. It doesn’t compete at the same level as it previously did either. This really is more of a Celica
Last edited:
PerformanceSound
Well-Known Member
Do you or anyone else who still feels that the MKV is a failure have any clue how designing and manufacturing cars (especially sports cars) works? Your living in some imaginary world if you think manufacturers of any product are designed and built 100% by themselves. That shit doesn’t happen anymore nor has it been that way since before the MKIV Supra. In all honesty TOYOTA DOESN’T KNOW HOW TO BUILD A SPORTS CAR!!! Of all the Japanese car makers, the are last when it comes to knowing how to build sports cars. That is why they sell SUV's and Trucks so well....because that's what they are good at. They have always relied on other companies for help for their sports cars. If Toyota was so great at building sports cars by themselves, how is it that of all Supra's, the only ONE GENERATION THAT HAD THE MOST OUTSIDE HELP IS ALSO THE MOST MEMORABLE ONE??? The JZ family of engines.....sooooo good right?? That’s because the original design of the 1JZ had HUGE input from YAMAHA!!! They just bumped up the displacement to up to beat the RB's from Nissan and called it a 2JZ!....even Turbo “Fucken” Yota knows this (see attached video clip). What about the 7M-GTE? Yeah, a real lemon huh?....100% designed and built by Toyota...I don't hear anyone wanting to see that motor resurrected. LFA’s engine?...beast right?? YAMAHA!!! Brakes?? Brembo Italy!! Rear differential?? TORSEN!! The all mighty Getrag V160 is considered by every gear head on the planet as one of the greatest manual transmissions to ever come in a factory car....and guess what??....it is designed and manufactured by Getrag in Germany BEFORE Toyota tests its durability and reliability tirelessly then giving the thumbs up to mass produce it for the Supra. Turned out pretty well for the MKIV no? The list goes on and on and on. The only thing truly designed by Toyota in the case of the beloved MKIV is the chassis and body parts, which are overweight and as stiff as a Twizzler. Gooooooo Toyota!!! They are not doing anything new here with the MKV, they are doing what they and just about every Japanese car maker was doing during the golden era in the 90's and on.
The Mazda RX-7 (FD) is considered by many to be one of the best handling sports cars on the planet for it's time...and even by today's standards. Guess what???....all thanks to Lotus engineers who co-developed the chassis for Mazda. The Rotary? Yeah, that was designed and built by Mazda....that's why it lasts about 50k miles before it needs a rebuild.
The R35 GTR is considered by the world as the greatest performance car for the money TO DATE!!! It runs with hyper cars, for a fraction of the cost!! The R35's GR6 transmission was co-developed by BorgWarner, Nissan, and Aichi stationing engineers at BorgWarner's Powertrain Technical Center in Auburn Hills, MI. The chassis is co-developed by Lotus, the brakes are co-developed by Brembo Italy, the seats are co-developed by Recaro Germany (yes, Recaro is a German brand), and on and on....
Injector Dynamics “ID’s” that are considered by every gear head on the planet to be the “go to” upgrade fuel injectors for high HP builds....yeah, ESPECIALLY HIGH HP SUPRA BUILDS, are designed and manufactured by Bosch Germany BEFORE Injector Dynamics gets them, tunes and tests them to their specific needs, and resells them to just about every car nut on the planet. Go ahead....tell me how ID’s suck again?? Now you have some dickface sending a petition letter talking about how the B58 should not be tuned by German aftermarket parts....my gosh.
I can sit here and give you thousands of examples. You and just about the entire fucken car community are dick whipped on the 2JZ....well, the 2JZ wasn't even an exclusive engine. It was a motor put into just about every car during that time in Toyota's lineup. They don't do that anymore, and if they did with a Lexus engine, it would split in two the moment you threw a whiff of boost at it. I am telling you, the B58 motor is a better motor than anything Lexus or Toyota currently offers today. Stop riding the internet bandwagon and decide for yourself. If you need time, then so be it....wait....and see what the aftermarket will do. I guarantee you, the B58 will be an awesome platform....be patient.
BigIan
New Member
Right understood, sorry state of affairs that is.
I'm personally looking forward to its arrival, have been told to expect mine in Sept. The fact that it shares lots of BMW bits is a real positive in my opinion. I have owned 3 series for about 12 years before switching to a Cayman S in Dec last year. The Cayman S isn't a patch on BMW for lots of things that's for sure.
Therealist
Well-Known Member
Your very presumptuous reply is the problem with the staunch defenders of this car. I do in fact understand the complexities of car development. For a company that already has other existing platforms, saying they don’t know how to produce sports cars is misleading, let’s also not forget some of the talent that provide the MKIV still work with Toyota.
I didn’t say I had anything wrong with taking co developed or good quality parts and adding them to a car.
I have a problem with the whole car being BMW. All the way to the interior which is a mirrored 3 series interior. It’s ugly and lazy. Even the mirrors aren’t unique. How can you defend that?
You cannot compare the development of the 2JZ which as you correctly stated, stems from the 1JZ and 7M, which was co developed with YAHAMA (a Japanese company with Japanese ethos) to a German made BMW engine that has already had a spate of failures. They are so confident in this engine that’s it’s “detuned”
326hp was a lot for 1993. 335hp on a detuned engine is not.... it shows they don’t have faith in it’s reliabilty.
I didn’t want the 2JZ in the new supra. That attitude is moronic. It’s a 25+ year old design. I expected a Toyota produced, co designed engine that was more efficient. It didn’t need to be a straight 6 either. The Lexus V6 is more of a candidate than the B58 ever could be.
The getrag takes power but is it the best gearbox? No. I like it personally but there’s better. The ZF8 however is not it.
The brakes on the MKIV which held the record for best performance brakes on a production car for over 10 years... they were made by Toyota....
The chassis was the way it was because the engineers were told by the executive board they would have to use the soarer chassis. they did a damn good job considering that limitation and a stiff chassis is a good thing.
The B58 is an awful platform already. Look online at all the issues people are having with coolant loss.
The MKIV was decent on release. Stock it outperforms Porsche 911s and Ferrari 348s at a fraction of the cost.
The MKV cannot boast any of these claims at all. It has no ambition and shows. I don’t think there will be many high power B58s. There’s a reason everyone uses old tech for high power builds, it’s built better not cheaper.
I’m betting the Lexus platform will be better developed in future. The LC500 is more supra than this car ever will be. For a start the supra has always been a GT car not a sports car and that’s what the LC500 is
justbake
Well-Known Member
The interior is far from a 3 series, quit staring at the HVAC
Mirrors? Because all modern side mirrors looks so similar nowadays that them being exactly the same is so miniscule that no one would notice unless they were hunting for a reason/excuse to hate the car.
There more to performance than HP numbers. the 335hp car would even outperform the 467hp RC-F if lexus didn't change gearing to suit.
Read about those issues again. Theres no loss of coolant, the factory W2A intercoolers weren't bled properly from the factory. While I am not defending that oversight, it is not the motor's fault.
I understand why people make this claim, I truly do. But this is again more Facebook-meme logic. This claim can't be made without acknowledging the RC.
Sponsored
Similar threads
