All-new 2023 Nissan Z makes world debut!

[johnny_10196]

Good history on the Z, thanks for posting. Clickbaity title though. It's not that Toyota couldn't, it;s that it did not make economical sense. The same reason that Nissan is recycling so many parts from the previous Z and other cars to make this "new" Z.

Take it up with @Guff

Well they could have made a LC or RC base Supra with the LS' turbo V6. Which everyway you cut it, both cars have always utilize items from the parts bin.

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[Thill444]

Take it up with @Guff

Well they could have made a LC or RC base Supra with the LS' turbo V6. Which everyway you cut it, both cars have always utilize items from the parts bin.

The head designer wanted an inline 6 from the start. Toyota looked at doing it themself but the cost would have made the car out of range for many buyers and Toyota did not want a repeat of the MKIV where they made an amazing car that people did not want to buy because of cost.

And we did get an all new chasis built around the car being a 2 seater sports car and the chasis was co-developed by Toyota and BMW.

 

[johnny_10196]

The head designer wanted an inline 6 from the start. Toyota looked at doing it themself but the cost would have made the car out of range for many buyers and Toyota did not want a repeat of the MKIV where they made an amazing car that people did not want to buy because of cost.

And we did get an all new chasis built around the car being a 2 seater sports car and the chasis was co-developed by Toyota and BMW.

Oh is that right? Then why there is a 4 banger model? ?

Not sure if you're serious or not. The reason why the A80 was expensive as F was because of rising yen to dollar. The car was cheaper in it's home market hence why they sold like 3 times the amount overseas. Lastly, it was also a parts bin special. Aristo motor with a shorten Soarer chassis.

That's cool ?

 

[Sub-MkV]

Oh is that right? Then why there is a 4 banger model? ?

Not sure if you're serious or not. The reason why the A80 was expensive as F was because of rising yen to dollar. The car was cheaper in it's home market hence why they sold like 3 times the amount overseas. Lastly, it was also a parts bin special. Aristo motor with a shorten Soarer chassis.

That's cool ?

The 4 banger was an after thought to rake in extra sales which makes financial sense. If they had utilized the heavy ass Lexus equipment you mentioned the Supra would've been a worse car than it is. The funny thing is a real Z should also have a I6 motor just like the first couple generations especially if it wanted to be retro inspired.

 

[romanLegion9574]

Oh is that right? Then why there is a 4 banger model? ?

Not sure if you're serious or not. The reason why the A80 was expensive as F was because of rising yen to dollar. The car was cheaper in it's home market hence why they sold like 3 times the amount overseas. Lastly, it was also a parts bin special. Aristo motor with a shorten Soarer chassis.

That's cool ?

@Thill444 actually hits it on the spot. Toyota shut down the factory that made inline 6s, which they wanted in the Supra, so any overhead to get an inhouse inline 6 going would've pushed up the price a fair amount. Let's not forget that $40k in 1990 is about $75-80k now adjusting for inflation, and that the Mk4 was using aluminum parts (fairly innovative and high end at the time), had larger brakes than a ZR1 Corvette of the era, and more cutting edge tech. It wasn't stupid expensive just because of the conversion rate.

You say the Mk4 sold well overseas, but it wasn't very popular in Europe; the Euro spec M3 wasn't neutered like the American spec and was considered better value for the money among enthusiasts; the Euro spec Mk4 might also have been toned down, but I don't recall exactly.

As for the inline 4, part of the reason is for marketing, allowing a larger consumer base to be able to purchase the car. You could also see it as the equivalent of the 2JZ-GE vs 2JZ-GTE, different trim levels. The different engine as opposed to NA vs turbo is very likely for emissions standards.

Lastly, Lexus cars are heavy and don't really compare to their BMW counterparts, so a Lexus based Supra would not be as good as the one we got.

 

[johnny_10196]

The 4 banger was an after thought to rake in extra sales which makes financial sense. If they had utilized the heavy ass Lexus equipment you mentioned the Supra would've been a worse car than it is. The funny thing is a real Z should also have a I6 motor just like the first couple generations especially if it wanted to be retro inspired.

@Thill444 actually hits it on the spot. Toyota shut down the factory that made inline 6s, which they wanted in the Supra, so any overhead to get an inhouse inline 6 going would've pushed up the price a fair amount. Let's not forget that $40k in 1990 is about $75-80k now adjusting for inflation, and that the Mk4 was using aluminum parts (fairly innovative and high end at the time), had larger brakes than a ZR1 Corvette of the era, and more cutting edge tech. It wasn't stupid expensive just because of the conversion rate.

You say the Mk4 sold well overseas, but it wasn't very popular in Europe; the Euro spec M3 wasn't neutered like the American spec and was considered better value for the money among enthusiasts; the Euro spec Mk4 might also have been toned down, but I don't recall exactly.

As for the inline 4, part of the reason is for marketing, allowing a larger consumer base to be able to purchase the car. You could also see it as the equivalent of the 2JZ-GE vs 2JZ-GTE, different trim levels. The different engine as opposed to NA vs turbo is very likely for emissions standards.

Lastly, Lexus cars are heavy and don't really compare to their BMW counterparts, so a Lexus based Supra would not be as good as the one we got.

Looks newbies, most of that was tongue in cheek.

 

[Thill444]

Oh is that right? Then why there is a 4 banger model? ?

Not sure if you're serious or not. The reason why the A80 was expensive as F was because of rising yen to dollar. The car was cheaper in it's home market hence why they sold like 3 times the amount overseas. Lastly, it was also a parts bin special. Aristo motor with a shorten Soarer chassis.

That's cool ?

Of course I am serious all this comes from the head of sports cars at Toyota. He actually sought out advice from Mazda and the gentleman who created the Miata and was told two things:
- you have to make a sports car that makes a profit
- if you are going to make a sports car you can't abandon the car after a few years, it has to evolve.
- if you can't make a profit and the car will not evolve don't build it in the first place.

The MK4 Supra was expensive because of the rising yen but also because Toyota made it too expensive in the first place. I was shopping new MKIV Supras back in the 90's and even with $10K discounts they were not selling them (ironically I bought a barely used FD RX-7 that depreciated like a rock for the first buyer).

Tada-san knew he could not make the same mistake with the MKV and building an all new chasis, all new inline 6 engine and factory, etc, etc would have meant building a car that was not profitable, would be too expensive, and would die in a year or two and not evolve.

This is why Tada-san partnered with Subaru for the BRZ and BMW for the Supra. Say what you want both both programs have been successful (in the US alone the first two model years of the MKV Supra has outsold 6 MY's of the MKIV) and the 86 is on it's second gen of production with lots of very positive reviews. Tada-san is following the formula. Building cars that people want and can afford and evolving them over time.

If the rumors of the manual Supra are true, and also a more powerful version, you can see Tada-san following the blueprint to a tee to keep interest in the MKV and constant evolution. A manual MKV Supra would cut the knees out from under Nissan.

 

[Thill444]

I also would love for someone to explain to me why Nissan is better than BMW in 2021. This is not the 70's, 80's, or 90's. Reliability wise Nissan ranks below BMW using multiple data sources. BMW has made big improvements over the last 5+ years while Nissan has lagged behind and is middle of the pack now. Nissan in 2022 is nothing like Nisan from the 90's. The company is on the verge of bankruptcy and their whole sales model seems to target people with no credit/low credit. This is similar to what happened to Mitsubishi in the US.

So yes the Supra is not "JDM" but does that even matter in 2022?

 

[RenRed2]

So yes the Supra is not "JDM" but does that even matter in 2022?

No. We have a world full of WORLD cars.

Innovation and partner arrangements matter at economies of scale. I love my Supra. I could care less about the finer details of its origin. Its a good sportscar and Im happy its been made.

Im not much of a fan of the new Z due to looks. Its just not an attractive car. Its good its been built. Its the one thing Nissan is doing right it appears.

The rest of their line is forgetful and better options abound in comparison.

 

[vb22]

 

[Captain_Kirk]

The head designer wanted an inline 6 from the start. Toyota looked at doing it themself but the cost would have made the car out of range for many buyers and Toyota did not want a repeat of the MKIV where they made an amazing car that people did not want to buy because of cost.

And we did get an all new chasis built around the car being a 2 seater sports car and the chasis was co-developed by Toyota and BMW.

You know the FT-HS was going to be the MK5 before they scrapped the project. According to A70TTR, it was going to have a V6 and a V8 powerplant. So all this talk about how the Supra "must have an I6" is just pure marketing. By Toyota's own requirement or definition, this would also mean that the I4 model isn't a "real" Supra. As you elided to, the real reason for these joint projects is cost savings.

 

[Supra93]

Let's not derail the Z thread by rehashing what the MK5 should, could, would have been. We already have a good amount of threads that touches on the matter.

https://www.supramkv.com/threads/news-update-and-discussion-on-next-gen-a100-supra.1840/
https://www.supramkv.com/threads/analysis-comments-reactions-from-the-web-about-the-new-supra.5156/
https://www.supramkv.com/threads/chris-harris-on-gr-yaris-and-supra.6922/
https://www.supramkv.com/threads/do...our-a90-supra-tired-of-the-bmw-comments.3213/

 

[Thill444]

The first company who makes a new front end for the Z is going to make some good money

I like the rest of the car. A new front end and some Nismo goodies and we are getting somewhere.

 

[vb22]

https://www.nissanzclub.com/forum/t...tions-to-begin-some-time-after-january-3.646/

Per a Nissan dealer today:

An update for everyone. This morning Nissan sent out emails to us saying reservations for the Ariya are currently in motion. This is a big deal due to the new Z being the next car to be rolled out by Nissan. As it currently stands, this isn't conformed but we should expect Z reservations to begin some time after January 3rd.

 

[Thill444]

I wonder if they will announce pricing before they take reservations? Personally I don't think they will announce pricing until April/May before they start shipping. With inflation the way it is I think many car companies are reluctant to get too far ahead on pricing.

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