Featured Our LIVE 2020 Supra Coverage and Interviews From Detroit Auto Show!

Discussion in 'General Supra Topics' started by JT, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. Nurburgring

    Nurburgring Well-Known Member

    Car(s):
    911 Turbo, M3 E46, Turbocharged NA Miata, S2000, Mazda FC3S & FD3S, EP91 Starlet, EK9 Type R, EG6 Sir2, AE86, 3SGE AE86, Evo7RS, F3 race car
    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Location:
    Chile
    Posts:
    204
    Liked:
    831
    That is HUGE; reverse engineering a new DME would have set back aftermaket development significantly. Great info.
     
  2. MA617M

    MA617M Well-Known Member

    Car(s):
    lots
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2017
    Location:
    Australia
    Posts:
    1,746
    Liked:
    4,268
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Thank you! Reason I ask - I've got a Renault RS265 8:08 in metallic white and it's stunning. Shows off the curves of the car brilliantly, and gold pearls on white cars tend to look yellow when dirty... So fingers crossed it's more silver!
     
    MLG Tofu Shop and A70TTR like this.
  3. Guff

    Guff Moderator
    Moderator

    Car(s):
    FR-S, BRZ, Supra, Mini Cooper
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Location:
    USA
    Posts:
    1,379
    Liked:
    6,354
    Garage Profiles:
    1
    #63 Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    Here's an overview of the conversation we had with Tada-San this morning. There were 5 main points we discussed.

    TadaSan Interview Go-2watermarked.jpg

    1. The vents all over the car, are they/can they be functional?

    Tada-San:
    The vents on the production car are blocked off because, on the street, none of them are necessary. However, the placement of every single vent was designed with function in mind (regarding aero and cooling etc) for use in racing. When you remove them, they can be used for downforce and cooling (even the side vents apparently). Some of these things may look unnecessary, but there is purpose behind all of the details on the car.


    2. The people of the tuning world are wondering if it’ll have a Toyota ECU or a BMW ECU?

    Tada-San:
    BMW. I want to make sure it’s open for tuners.


    3. Why is the screen high up on the center console, it looks like it interferes with the driver’s view?

    Tada-San:
    I made sure that the screen doesn’t interfere with the driver’s view, like if you are looking at the fenders to place the car on the road. But I also kept it high enough so that you can see it while driving. But again, it is a compromise with design and function to have it like it is.


    4. Why does the Z4 have more horsepower than the Supra?

    Tada-San:
    I always get this question about numbers. My answer is: Just drive it first.

    @ichitaka05:
    Oh yeah, like with the 86 Launch?

    Tada-San:
    Yes.


    5. Why did you choose a BMW engine, why didn’t you make your own in-house Inline 6?

    Tada-San:
    We could have done it, but it would have taken significantly more time. And I didn’t want the car take any longer than it already did.

    (Guff Notes: This is likely hinting at the fact that there wasn’t enough time for Tada to develop an engine because he would have missed his window to actually make the car, due to ever-constricting emissions regulations as well as the financial viability of developing a new engine. Or even his time as an engineer at Toyota (he’s technically retired))

    TadaSan Interview Go watermarked.jpg


    Something I wanted to mention, and this is not corroborated by anything from Toyota, Tada-San, GR, or BMW. But, I have been looking into the development story of the Z4 and Supra, from the very first meeting in Q1 2012 til now, and there's one thing that has been racking my brain: The GR Team and Tada-San have been working with BMW since 2012 on this project. The idea to use the BMW inline 6 was present since the nascency of this project's development, and was one of the things they first started working on.

    The BMW B58 was first released in 2015. It is a clean-sheet design over the previous N55 with a heavy emphasis on strength and durability compared to the N-series motors. It is part of BMW's modular engine design, so it has plenty in common with the other B-series engines including the diesels and the 4-cylinders, which does allow for more efficient/cost effective design.

    Now, I am not saying that Toyota designed the B58, not by any stretch, but considering that we know that GR spent a significant amount of money and time breaking down engine/drivetrain parts and sending them back to Japan for testing and analysis, it makes sense that they were testing and improving parts on the B58 prior to its eventual release in the F30 340i in 2015. Whatever revision of the B58 that we ended up with in the Supra is unlikely to be just an off the shelf BMW unit, considering how much development time Toyota spent on it. In other interviews, Tada-San has specifically stated that there was a significant back and forth with BMW with "thousands of parts" sent back for analysis and development. Things like the chassis components, suspension, etc may account for some of that, but the engine is the one thing with the most question marks in terms of the specific components that lay within.

    Anyways, that's just a sidebar, take from that what you will :p. I am working on researching all the specifics of the development of this car and cataloging it, and this is just one of the things I am working on.
     
  4. chnco

    chnco Member

    First Name:
    Allen
    Car(s):
    MKIV Toyota Supra, FC RX7, 360 Modena
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2018
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Posts:
    18
    Liked:
    39
    Thanks Guff. The more I read, the more I speculate that they “got lazy and just used BMW parts”. The little things keep adding up and it’s tough to ignore the lack of influence Toyota had and/or changed up in the car.

    I’m perplexed and hoping for more when the car is released to the general public
     
  5. supraz4

    supraz4 Member

    First Name:
    Rich
    Car(s):
    2017 Focus ST
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2018
    Location:
    CA
    Posts:
    23
    Liked:
    58
    Thanks for the interview and all the info, Guff!
    I personally think this joint project is very interesting not only as a Toyota or BMW enthusiast but generally as a sports car enthusiast.
    Two companies that makes or made one of the greatest inline-6 engines and sports cars collaborated together to create these two cars.
    As much as I understand the people that might have been disappointed in the Supra because it’s not fully developed by Toyota, I think it’s great to see these two cars come to fruition with amazing performance to back it up. (Of course, we will have to see the test numbers for production Supra when it’s out, but Z4 has already been posting some impressive times.)
     
    MLG Tofu Shop, Jabba and Guff like this.
  6. Bryster

    Bryster Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    Bryan
    Car(s):
    Nothing,considering a Civic DX
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2018
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Posts:
    1,040
    Liked:
    1,053
    From the looks of it,he chose the B58 over a 3JZ to stay within that 5 year window
     
  7. SupraFiend

    SupraFiend Well-Known Member

    Car(s):
    5 Supras currently
    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2017
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Posts:
    493
    Liked:
    741
    #67 Jan 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2019
    While what he said may be true, the main reason is obviously budget. If they weren't willing to pay to develop a new car on their own they certainly weren't going to pay for an all new motor. Toyota seems pretty set on sticking with v6s (and v8s) still so not likely they would have an inline and V 6 in production at the same time again in this day and age.
     
  8. CantEven_Supra

    CantEven_Supra Well-Known Member

    Car(s):
    2016 Cayman GT4
    Joined:
    May 26, 2018
    Location:
    Arizona
    Posts:
    84
    Liked:
    210
    Do we have any idea of when the next round of test drives are going to be for journalists and car reviewers with the now production model?
     
  9. Kaizen

    Kaizen Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    Jim
    Car(s):
    2020 GR Supra
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2019
    Location:
    Florida
    Posts:
    116
    Liked:
    328
    Occupation:
    Mechanical Engineer
    "2. The people of the tuning world are wondering if it’ll have a Toyota ECU or a BMW ECU?

    Tada-San:
    BMW. I want to make sure it’s open for tuners."

    How exactly does this work? If Toyota tuned the car to have a distinct Japanese taste, they did that by coding/modifying BMW's ECU? I remember the Jarama reviews saying it had a Japanese feel to it with the engine and transmission. From an engineering perspective I only see Toyota developing the specifics of the ECU on their side to test the car repeatedly. Unless Toyota was just working on the BMW ECU from the beginning with the help of BMW engineers (looks like everything is manufactured in Germany).:hmm:
     
  10. Guff

    Guff Moderator
    Moderator

    Car(s):
    FR-S, BRZ, Supra, Mini Cooper
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Location:
    USA
    Posts:
    1,379
    Liked:
    6,354
    Garage Profiles:
    1
    The actual hardware of the ECU and various body controls is BMW, and Toyota did their own mapping/tuning to get the car to where they wanted. BMW would have given Toyota whatever tools and software were necessary to do so. This is was done specifically because BMW's proprietary encryption on their current ECU hardware has already been (mostly) decoded, and as such, 3rd party tuners can work with these ECUs for tuning purposes.

    It makes no difference to Toyota whether or not they use BMW or Toyota hardware, but even Tada-San himself knows that the Toyota hardware isn't nearly as tuner-friendly as the current BMW stuff is.
     
  11. kona61

    kona61 Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    J
    Car(s):
    5G 4Runner, MK7 Golf, AZW LE Supra
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2018
    Location:
    San Bernardino-ish, CA
    Posts:
    813
    Liked:
    1,196
    Garage Profiles:
    1
    Especially an ECU that has been cracked already. The incentive to crack BMW ecu's is high as their are many models that use the same ECU.
     
    Bryster likes this.
  12. ayau

    ayau Member

    First Name:
    ayau
    Car(s):
    F1 fitty
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Location:
    Cornfields
    Posts:
    14
    Liked:
    7
    Thanks for doing the interview.

    Any hints at other Supra variants in the future? Maybe a more "track orientated" version?

    What do you think Toyota will do with the current 86?
     
  13. solidsamir

    solidsamir Well-Known Member

    Car(s):
    Corolla
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2017
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Posts:
    309
    Liked:
    613
    Gender:
    Male
    I think that's one of the most interesting things I've heard yet. I'm really hoping this proves to be a case of BMW with Toyota reliability rather than a Toyota with BMW reliability.
     
    A70TTR, Guff and Bryster like this.
  14. Guff

    Guff Moderator
    Moderator

    Car(s):
    FR-S, BRZ, Supra, Mini Cooper
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2016
    Location:
    USA
    Posts:
    1,379
    Liked:
    6,354
    Garage Profiles:
    1
    Found some random photos I took of Tada-san, figured I'd post em here

    TadaSan-2.jpg

    TadaSan-3.jpg
     
  15. dgh

    dgh Well-Known Member

    First Name:
    Darren
    Car(s):
    1993 RX7; 2011 Toyota RAV 4
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2018
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts:
    164
    Liked:
    316
    #75 Jan 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
    With all the talk (ridicule) of the "fake" vents (Jalopnick did an entire article on this a couple days ago), it is interesting to see the black cover on the upper part of the rear door jamb in pictures - you can see it in the picture above, and others - suggesting it is covering a hole leading to the rear wheel wells. This makes Tada-sans comments about all of the vents being designed to be function seem valid. Close up pictures of the front wheel wells have also shown vents in the front that apparently must be connected somehow to the front teardrop vents under the corners of the headlights.
     

Share This Page

Loading...