THIS Is the Manual Toyota Supra [Official Release]

[s219]

The BMW parts bin combinations I fully expected but I like their approach if this is so. They got the strength, cooler operating temperatures and weight targets that they wanted but the remaining consequence was some NVH which they solved with a specific gearbox oil. It wouldn't surprise me if they also specified a dual-mass flywheel as well to further minimize NVH. They did that for all MKIV 6-speeds after all.

The Getrag Type 233 V160/161 had some NVH in its design. The R154 5-speed did as well. It didn't bother or deter anyone from enjoying either gearbox in the past and it still doesn't now. This is pretty much a canon characteristic for turbocharged Supra manual transmissions so whatever they've done to get it to their standards should feel quite good and probably as good or better than either of those vintage Supra manual transmissions.

The rear differential will have a different, slightly shorter final drive ratio as compared to ZF8 3.0 Supras. Upgraded axles would be great if that is also true since that has been a noted weakness on these cars that people already upgrade for greater strength.

The engineers went through the same process used to develop manual transmissions for the M cars which have to handle higher power, higher mechanical loads, and higher thermal loads compared to non-M models. They almost always ditch the acoustic package, use beefed up mechanicals, switch to a different gear oil, and have more stringent maintenance requirements. Similar for the rear diffs.

BMW has been spec'ing dual mass flywheels for years so it would be an anomaly if the Supra got anything different.

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[AHP]

I'm curious about the axles and driveshaft (and diff to an extent) since they've been common failure points and a manual is going to really exacerbate that.

 

[PerformanceSound]

What I know is the axles and differential had revisions in testing….to what extent, I don’t know yet. However, strength and weight were key points for the axles and differential. There was also mention of larger brakes I believe rear setup (discs and calipers) during testing….I heard that because the manual transmission doesn’t have a compliant drivetrain speed reduction as the auto does (i.e., let off the accelerator and the drivetrain resistance slows the vehicle down) larger brakes would need to be available. These maybe upcoming options or package specific.

 

[PerformanceSound]

I only brought it up in response to earlier comments that it's a "GR transmission". It's not. It is the result of BMW parts-bin engineering, same process BMW would have gone through internally even if Toyota was not involved. The review Doug Demuro posted today confirms that. The manual is only being used for the Supra, so that much is unique, but it's very much a BMW transmission.

Toyota only puts a GR series run plaque (i.e., x of xxx) on vehicles they have direct involvement in….so, regardless of who makes the transmission (BMW doesn’t build this transmission either, it’s ZF), if it has this plaque (which it will when you open the door) then it means the Supra will have something unique to it that no other car (or BMW) will have. Same went for the Getrag‘s of the 90’s….BMW, Nissan, and Toyota essentially had the “same” transmission with each manufacturer revising it to their specific need. Does that mean a Getrag in a MKIV is the same as the one in the R34 or E46 M3?….I don’t think so.

Not to keep saying “I told you so”, but I mentioned the series plaque years ago, and again….no one believed me. So, my source has been on point!

 

[s219]

It's a unique transmission only destined for the Supra but that's about the extent of the "GR-ness". If that makes people feel better about the car, fantastic, but I personally don't think the Supra needs this kind of ongoing validation. People have been trying to spin the car's development this way for years, but it's flat out wishful thinking.

 

[PerformanceSound]

It's a unique transmission only destined for the Supra but that's about the extent of the "GR-ness". If that makes people feel better about the car, fantastic, but I personally don't think the Supra needs this kind of ongoing validation. People have been trying to spin the car's development this way for years, but it's flat out wishful thinking.

Manufacturers have hardly used in-house made transmissions, so im not understanding your point. A transmission unique or bespoke to a vehicle would certainly qualify that variation of transmission to be named appropriately….in this case, it’s a GR transmission made by ZF. Just because BMW uses ZF transmissions, doesn’t make this a BMW parts bin component is my point. Now, if GR took the transmission from a M3 and put it directly into a Supra, then there is argument for parts bin sharing.

 

[s219]

There have been at least 5-6 articles and Youtube reviews where Toyota has been quoted saying this was an existing BMW manual transmission adapted with existing BMW parts and modifications to create the unit in the Supra (Z4 and M3 units were mentioned as origins). Just take the time to read/watch the info that's already out there. The info is coming from Toyota directly. It is completely consistent with how BMW has adapted transmissions across their model range over the years.

The Toyota Supra's Manual Transmission Is Sourced From BMW

The Toyota Supra’s New Manual Is a Tweaked BMW Unit From ZF

Toyota Supra Six-Speed Manual Gearbox Adapted From The Z4 sDrive

The 2023 Toyota Supra *MANUAL* Is a Huge Upgrade

 

[MA617M]

ZF is not a part of BMW, they are simply an OEM supplier to BMW. Just like Magna-Steyr manufacture cars for BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes and Toyota.

Does this mean the S6-50 is used somewhere in BMW range? Possibly. Given the ZF naming convention, the true transmission code will be able to decode the full extent of 'bespoke' the transmission is.

The youtube and journalist articles quoted above are not direct from Toyota. Once Toyota shares the transmission code, we will understand the whole picture, until then, it's conjecture.

FWIW, the R34 Getrag is identical to the "V160" in the Supra, albeit for output shaft and front and rear housings. The gearset is the same. (Ratios aside, but that is, in terms of transmission design, not really a differentiator). It's also shared with the E90 M3, and the gearset, gear design, syncho and slider hub design, and shaft design, is shared with the Getrag G50.21 (Aka 993 6 speed trans). They're all 85mm CD, 30mm FW with triple synchros available.

 

[MA617M]

Also, 6MT now available to order in Australia. Price not confirmed yet. Put my order in this morning.

 

[PerformanceSound]

ZF is not a part of BMW, they are simply an OEM supplier to BMW. Just like Magna-Steyr manufacture cars for BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes and Toyota.

Does this mean the S6-50 is used somewhere in BMW range? Possibly. Given the ZF naming convention, the true transmission code will be able to decode the full extent of 'bespoke' the transmission is.

The youtube and journalist articles quoted above are not direct from Toyota. Once Toyota shares the transmission code, we will understand the whole picture, until then, it's conjecture.

FWIW, the R34 Getrag is identical to the "V160" in the Supra, albeit for output shaft and front and rear housings. The gearset is the same. (Ratios aside, but that is, in terms of transmission design, not really a differentiator). It's also shared with the E90 M3, and the gearset, gear design, syncho and slider hub design, and shaft design, is shared with the Getrag G50.21 (Aka 993 6 speed trans). They're all 85mm CD, 30mm FW with triple synchros available.

Thank you! Yeah, that’s why I put “same” in quote about the Getrag, because they are and are not the same. Just like when people say the manual transmission in the MKV is from a BMW parts bin, it is and it isn’t. It’s a ZF transmission used in several BMW’s but in different configuration of which no other BMW has the same setup. It’s not from a BMW parts bin, it’s using a transmission from a BMW supplier with GR specs….big difference I agree. Some people just don’t want to accept that.

 

[KahnBB6]

It's just strange to me to when folks don't understand that an automaker uses a range of suppliers and that they don't make every component themselves. Yes, the MKV chassis and its architecture were designed to share quite a lot in common with the Z4 except for the exterior styling being very different between the two cars.

But ZF is a transmission company that supplies to far more OEMs than just BMW. The ZF8 range of automatics are not exclusive to BMW and neither is this customized manual gearbox that Toyota worked with ZF to tailor to what they wanted as closely as possible based on the available parts that ZF, as a supplier, makes available to any OEM automaker who wants a huge batch run of them in one of their cars.

As mentioned above the guts of the Getrag Type 233 wasn't exclusive to the Supra MKIV, just the external casing and some other parts were. Getrag made a different version of it for BMW and they made an AWD version of it for Nissan's R34 GT-R.

Toyota frequently uses Aisin as a transmission supplier. Aisin is the supplier who made the R154 5-speed manual gearbox for various 7M-GTE and 1JZ-GTE powered Toyotas from 1986-2007(or thereabouts).

Yet GM worked with Aisin to create a very customized version of that manual transmission design for the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky. In GM's parts database it is called "Aisin AR-5" but it is extremely similar to the R154 that is based on, requiring only a few parts swap modifications to bolt it up to a 1JZ or 2JZ engine.

Does that make the Solstice with an Aisin AR-5 not enough GM/Pontiac/Saturn to be a true GM/Pontiac/Saturn?

I do wish that Toyota had designed their own Supra in-house the way they did for the GR Yaris and GR Corolla but I'm well beyond that personally. Hopefully they will for the next generation MKVI.

Nonetheless, while it's a ZF gearbox that is close to what some BMW's use it's not quite the same as assembled in a specific combination of available ZF parts and probably a couple of new ones that ZF made just for the Supra application.

Interestingly as an aside footnote, Magna International, who own Magna-Steyr as their subsidiary, are the current owners of Getrag as of 2015.

The transmission maker ZF on the other hand is 90% owned by the Zeppelin Foundation... which had its original roots in the research and development of hydrogen zeppelin airships. That's pretty wild.

...

Anyway, I'm just glad that Toyota got the message from both worldwide public reaction and Nissan revamping their Z with a manual transmission option to get a good manual transmission option for the Supra at all.

Based on what we learned about how much trouble EAG had in finding just one existing ZF gearbox (from a diesel model no less) that would fit the B58 block and which still needed final drive ratio changes for a still less-than-ideal end result I'm glad that Toyota didn't basically do the same and actually worked with ZF to customize a much better choice of transmission in their existing range of gearboxes to suit the Supra.

Who can say at the moment if this customization with ZF to make a unique manual transmission variant for the Supra went as far as Toyota & Subaru did in 2012 when they worked with Aisin to take the existing AZ6/J160 6-speed (from the S2000, RX8, Altezza RS200 and Silvia S15 Spec-R) to change enough of it for the FR-S/BRZ/GT86 such that they renamed it the TL70, though Toyota will probably come up with their own internal name for this ZF gearbox in their parts system.

 

[zrk]

It's just strange to me to when folks don't understand that an automaker uses a range of suppliers and that they don't make every component themselves. Yes, the MKV chassis and its architecture were designed to share quite a lot in common with the Z4 except for the exterior styling being very different between the two cars.

But ZF is a transmission company that supplies to far more OEMs than just BMW. The ZF8 range of automatics are not exclusive to BMW and neither is this customized manual gearbox that Toyota worked with ZF to tailor to what they wanted as closely as possible based on the available parts that ZF, as a supplier, makes available to any OEM automaker who wants a huge batch run of them in one of their cars.

As mentioned above the guts of the Getrag Type 233 wasn't exclusive to the Supra MKIV, just the external casing and some other parts were. Getrag made a different version of it for BMW and they made an AWD version of it for Nissan's R34 GT-R.

Toyota frequently uses Aisin as a transmission supplier. Aisin is the supplier who made the R154 5-speed manual gearbox for various 7M-GTE and 1JZ-GTE powered Toyotas from 1986-2007(or thereabouts).

Yet GM worked with Aisin to create a very customized version of that manual transmission design for the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Sky. In GM's parts database it is called "Aisin AR-5" but it is extremely similar to the R154 that is based on, requiring only a few parts swap modifications to bolt it up to a 1JZ or 2JZ engine.

Does that make the Solstice with an Aisin AR-5 not enough GM/Pontiac/Saturn to be a true GM/Pontiac/Saturn?

I do wish that Toyota had designed their own Supra in-house the way they did for the GR Yaris and GR Corolla but I'm well beyond that personally. Hopefully they will for the next generation MKVI.

Nonetheless, while it's a ZF gearbox that is close to what some BMW's use it's not quite the same as assembled in a specific combination of available ZF parts and probably a couple of new ones that ZF made just for the Supra application.

Interestingly as an aside footnote, Magna International, who own Magna-Steyr as their subsidiary, are the current owners of Getrag as of 2015.

The transmission maker ZF on the other hand is 90% owned by the Zeppelin Foundation... which had its original roots in the research and development of hydrogen zeppelin airships. That's pretty wild.

...

Anyway, I'm just glad that Toyota got the message from both worldwide public reaction and Nissan revamping their Z with a manual transmission option to get a good manual transmission option for the Supra at all.

Based on what we learned about how much trouble EAG had in finding just one existing ZF gearbox (from a diesel model no less) that would fit the B58 block and which still needed final drive ratio changes for a still less-than-ideal end result I'm glad that Toyota didn't basically do the same and actually worked with ZF to customize a much better choice of transmission in their existing range of gearboxes to suit the Supra.

Who can say at the moment if this customization with ZF to make a unique manual transmission variant for the Supra went as far as Toyota & Subaru did in 2012 when they worked with Aisin to take the existing AZ6/J160 6-speed (from the S2000, RX8, Altezza RS200 and Silvia S15 Spec-R) to change enough of it for the FR-S/BRZ/GT86 such that they renamed it the TL70, though Toyota will probably come up with their own internal name for this ZF gearbox in their parts system.

Fuck Samsung

Sent from my iPhone

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People really just don't understand how major suppliers operate.

 

[Bryster]

What I know is the axles and differential had revisions in testing….to what extent, I don’t know yet. However, strength and weight were key points for the axles and differential. There was also mention of larger brakes I believe rear setup (discs and calipers) during testing….I heard that because the manual transmission doesn’t have a compliant drivetrain speed reduction as the auto does (i.e., let off the accelerator and the drivetrain resistance slows the vehicle down) larger brakes would need to be available. These maybe upcoming options or package specific.

Aren't bigger brakes usually more expensive?

 

[PerformanceSound]

Aren't bigger brakes usually more expensive?

Yes and no. Depending on logistics and where they are coming from, the price of the vehicle maybe more or the same. For example, if Toyota is able to source 6 piston calipers from Subaru’s STI, the price may not be much more. However, if Toyota sources it from say an M car, then there will be a premium. Reason being Toyota has a very close manufacturing relationship with Subaru, and more of a business relationship with BMW. Since the STI brakes are Brembo OEM, they might be able to get them easier from Italy directly to Magna. Just as an example, not saying they will be STI brakes.

Now, I will say my source has mentioned Akibono several times. Whether that is pads, rotors, or calipers….I don’t know, yet. One thing I will say (and I’ve hinted at this in the past), Toyota maybe working backwards on development of the MKV platform to be “more” Toyota than BMW. What I mean is, they maybe bringing in other companies to enhance the MKV to be even more apart than the Z4. I know people think I’m crazy, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Yamaha will have some hand in upcoming enhancements….what those are I don’t know for sure, but my source has mentioned Yamaha as well. Remember, Maga Steyr isn’t a BMW factory….it is designed to accept parts from all over the world.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Yes and no. Depending on logistics and where they are coming from, the price of the vehicle maybe more or the same. For example, if Toyota is able to source 6 piston calipers from Subaru’s STI, the price may not be much more. However, if Toyota sources it from say an M car, then there will be a premium. Reason being Toyota has a very close manufacturing relationship with Subaru, and more of a business relationship with BMW. Since the STI brakes are Brembo OEM, they might be able to get them easier from Italy directly to Magna. Just as an example, not saying they will be STI brakes.

Now, I will say my source has mentioned Akibono several times. Whether that is pads, rotors, or calipers….I don’t know, yet. One thing I will say (and I’ve hinted at this in the past), Toyota maybe working backwards on development of the MKV platform to be “more” Toyota than BMW. What I mean is, they maybe bringing in other companies to enhance the MKV to be even more apart than the Z4. I know people think I’m crazy, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Yamaha will have some hand in upcoming enhancements….what those are I don’t know for sure, but my source has mentioned Yamaha as well. Remember, Maga Steyr isn’t a BMW factory….it is designed to accept parts from all over the world.

The Z fans reading this will lose their shit lmfao.

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