PerformanceSound
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Toyota is fully aware of a “Supra killer” Nismo Z that’s coming….and they are prepared.
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Bryster
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I've noticed that and I appreciate it from Toyota
s219
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The new Supra gearbox is BMW part # GS6L50TZ.
The older Z4 gearbox (basis for the new one) is BMW part # GS6L40LZ.
They are both BMW-exclusive units manufactured by ZF.
PerformanceSound
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You answered it yourself!
What other BMW will have the exact manual transmission? I mean EXACT! Nut for nut, bolt for bolt. Not “basis for…”, EXACT! As for “basis for…”, the Z4 used a ZF transmission, not a BMW transmission. Just like the MKIV used a Getrag transmission, an R34 used a Getrag transmission, etc… but no one ever says Toyota used a Nissan transmission or vise versa. I don’t get why this is so difficult to understand.
MA617M
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The ZF 'S6' transmission range is not exclusive to BMW. They are also used in Jaguar (and others from memory) and the large 650 units are used in Ford trucks (again from memory)
The L,40,L and Z are all codes based on torque rating, gear ratios, output options. D = diesel, B= Benzin (German for petrol).
These are ZF part codes, not BMW part codes. BMW part numbers follow a different nomenclature.
This is all just discusssing nuance anyway, in the end, the Supra has a ZF box that will share a lot in common with the ZF boxes used in BMW.
s219
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The units I gave part #s for are exclusive to BMW and have BMW-specific interfaces. ZF makes S6 transmissions for other manufacturers as well but it's not relevant to the discussion. I feel like we're going around in circles here with people stating common information that is well known in the industry and then trying to make it into some sort of "evidence". You don't need to keep stating the obvious. I have worked in the industry for over 30 years and know my way around.
Anyone who thinks Toyota went directly to ZF to make a GR-specific transmission is wrong and going down the same road of delusion we saw 3-4 years ago when everybody was trying to play up the Toyota involvement and play down the BMW contribution. I even remember people falsely claiming Toyota had a hand in the original B58 development along these same lines. It's all nonsense.
Toyota worked with BMW to adapt an existing BMW manual transmission for the Supra, and they did this by following the same process BMW uses internally across their gearbox portfolio. Changes to the gearset, acoustic package, thermal management, and lubrication schedule are all based on internal BMW parts-bin engineering. In the end, the result is a Supra-specific BMW transmission that is manufactured by ZF and carries a BMW part #.
Y'all can spin that any way you want if it makes you feel better and gives the car some extra special Toyota validation, but it's a total stretch of the imagination to think this was a GR transmission. Toyota could have developed the transmission with their excellent in house capabilities and then gone to Aisin who they already have a relationship with, resulting in a true Toyota/GR gearbox, but they didn't. Why? They still would have needed to work with BMW on systems integration and the overall effort would have likely been bigger and more expensive. So the BMW parts-bin partnership was the best overall solution. There is too much dependence on BMW in every other part of the car that the transmission bolts to and interfaces with.
Captain_Kirk
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KahnBB6
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You know... this has me thinking: Maybe we've missed a big opportunity all these years to say that the Nissan Skyline R34 GT-R isn't quite fully "Nissan enough" and is really a Toyota hybrid since it uses an AWD variant fo the same Getrag Type 233 6-speed manual transmission that the Supra MKIV received before it.... even though Getrag was the supplier of the variations of that core transmission design for both Japanese automakers.
Let's also call out the Shelby Mustang GT500, Chevy Corvette, Dodge Viper, Australian Ford Falcon, various Holden HSVs, Dodge Challenger, Pontiac G8 GXP & Chevy SS sedan, Cadillac CTS-V & ATS-V & CT4 V Blackwing & CT5 V Blackwing, and the Camaro SS & ZL1 for all using variants of the same core Tremec TR-6060 6-speed manual transmission. They're all clearly mutt vehicle models just sharing the each other's automotive DNA and can't be though of as having their own unique identities and personalities.
The basic ZF8-8HP automatic transmission design is also used in a wide range of automaker's cars besides BMWs. I guess that makes all of the other models from other automakers that use it basically BMWs as well.
I think we should call out every sportscar, sport sedan and hot hatch that ever used a custom variant of a transmission made by an independent OEM transmission supplier that also supplied other customized variations or identical versions of the same transmissions to other the vehicles of other automakers.
That would make for a VERY long and exhaustive list.
ZF isn't owned by BMW. It just supplies transmissions to them according to the specifications they ask for just like all other automakers. The GS6 variant going into the Supra isn't the same exact GS6 currently in use by a BMW model even if the core starting point of that transmission as designed by ZF has a variant that BMW uses with their own specifications.
They're just transmissions made by transmission suppliers who have already-made variations of core transmission families that an automaker can take as-is or in a specialized variant set up to whatever specifications that OEM automaker wants for it their particular vehicle model.
I'll also echo that Magna-Steyr, who make the Z4 and Supra and manufacture many other vehicles for other automakers besides just BMW and Toyota, are set up to be a flexible operation. It is certainly within their production capabilities to make whatever specific changes and/or incorporate whatever specific unique parts and assemblies that Toyota wants which might cause their car to differ even more from the BMW Z4 on the same production lines.
As long as Toyota wants to pay for those changes and as long as the production contract is still in effect Magna-Steyr will pretty much do whatever they want. ZF, as an independent supplier, is only too happy to do the same for them.
Let's also call out the Shelby Mustang GT500, Chevy Corvette, Dodge Viper, Australian Ford Falcon, various Holden HSVs, Dodge Challenger, Pontiac G8 GXP & Chevy SS sedan, Cadillac CTS-V & ATS-V & CT4 V Blackwing & CT5 V Blackwing, and the Camaro SS & ZL1 for all using variants of the same core Tremec TR-6060 6-speed manual transmission. They're all clearly mutt vehicle models just sharing the each other's automotive DNA and can't be though of as having their own unique identities and personalities.
The basic ZF8-8HP automatic transmission design is also used in a wide range of automaker's cars besides BMWs. I guess that makes all of the other models from other automakers that use it basically BMWs as well.
I think we should call out every sportscar, sport sedan and hot hatch that ever used a custom variant of a transmission made by an independent OEM transmission supplier that also supplied other customized variations or identical versions of the same transmissions to other the vehicles of other automakers.
That would make for a VERY long and exhaustive list.
ZF isn't owned by BMW. It just supplies transmissions to them according to the specifications they ask for just like all other automakers. The GS6 variant going into the Supra isn't the same exact GS6 currently in use by a BMW model even if the core starting point of that transmission as designed by ZF has a variant that BMW uses with their own specifications.
They're just transmissions made by transmission suppliers who have already-made variations of core transmission families that an automaker can take as-is or in a specialized variant set up to whatever specifications that OEM automaker wants for it their particular vehicle model.
I'll also echo that Magna-Steyr, who make the Z4 and Supra and manufacture many other vehicles for other automakers besides just BMW and Toyota, are set up to be a flexible operation. It is certainly within their production capabilities to make whatever specific changes and/or incorporate whatever specific unique parts and assemblies that Toyota wants which might cause their car to differ even more from the BMW Z4 on the same production lines.
As long as Toyota wants to pay for those changes and as long as the production contract is still in effect Magna-Steyr will pretty much do whatever they want. ZF, as an independent supplier, is only too happy to do the same for them.
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DDantas
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god I would love to see a Yamaha exhaust.
PerformanceSound
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I believe the same. I don’t know for sure yet if it’s cylinder head work because there was mention of “other firms” coming in to assist with emissions systems. So, could be emissions components, intake/exhaust, or even head work. I hope it’s not just acoustics….should know more soon.
Materia
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I know you’re joking here but most people don’t know Apple uses Samsung parts in their phones. Used to have to explain this all the time when I worked for Apple
But glad you know what’s up regarding part usage partnerships. Reading these posts with people arguing parts is hilarious.
Next, people are going to tell me K&N really is 100% US made. Spoiler… my time in their sweatshop during college knows that answer too
GRMan
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Your logic is flawed...if Toyota wants customisation on the 6MT (which they did), they would approach ZF, not BMW. What ZF will do and did, was to try and reuse as many existing components as possible to reduce cost.
Toyota designed the specification required for the manual Supra, not BMW. BMW has no involvement in that at all. So in reasoning and in practice, the 6MT is all Toyota. The fact that some parts number of the Supra 6MT matches some parts number of BMW's 6MT components is irrelevant.
This is coming from an engineer. Whoever comes up with the design and specifications of the unit is the mastermind of that unit. The components of a unit can be shared across platforms. Using your logic, a Porsche GT3 is a parts bin car, any BMW M car is a parts bin car...
PerformanceSound
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Exactly! Same with almost every domestic muscle car and the Tremec T56. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge didn’t build the T56, but they specified their requirements (ratios, bellhousing, tailhousing, shifter location, gearsets, synchro’s, etc…) to Tremec and in return got a vehicle specific version of the T56 for their need. It’s why a Viper’s T56 is no comparison to a Camaro’s T56.
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